Brexit: what say ye?

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

Aresen wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 19:15
I have read only a very few of the writings of the US Founding Fathers, so I am not really cognizant of the arguments surrounding the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

However, IIRC, the USFF thought they could avoid the development of political parties, which they saw as one of the flaws in the Westminster Parliament. The Congress was supposed to be a body of individual statesmen not beholden to parties.
Definitely a factor, but I don't think that can explain the lack of anything like a parliamentary system in subdivisions of the US. AFAICT, nothing stopped a state from having a legislature with a prime minister instead of separate legislatures and governors, even after it became clear that parties were a thing in the US. None of them did or do so. I don't even believe there are cities that try anything like this, as opposed to electing mayors and city legislatures.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 20:45
Aresen wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 19:15
I have read only a very few of the writings of the US Founding Fathers, so I am not really cognizant of the arguments surrounding the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

However, IIRC, the USFF thought they could avoid the development of political parties, which they saw as one of the flaws in the Westminster Parliament. The Congress was supposed to be a body of individual statesmen not beholden to parties.
Definitely a factor, but I don't think that can explain the lack of anything like a parliamentary system in subdivisions of the US. AFAICT, nothing stopped a state from having a legislature with a prime minister instead of separate legislatures and governors, even after it became clear that parties were a thing in the US. None of them did or do so. I don't even believe there are cities that try anything like this, as opposed to electing mayors and city legislatures.
National government models tend to exert significant influence over local and regional political thinking. Don't most countries with parliamentary systems at the national level also have something similar at the state/province/etc. level? I think our states mostly emulate the feds for the same reason that states/provinces/etc emulate the national government in other countries.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

thoreau wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 22:53
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 20:45
Aresen wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 19:15
I have read only a very few of the writings of the US Founding Fathers, so I am not really cognizant of the arguments surrounding the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

However, IIRC, the USFF thought they could avoid the development of political parties, which they saw as one of the flaws in the Westminster Parliament. The Congress was supposed to be a body of individual statesmen not beholden to parties.
Definitely a factor, but I don't think that can explain the lack of anything like a parliamentary system in subdivisions of the US. AFAICT, nothing stopped a state from having a legislature with a prime minister instead of separate legislatures and governors, even after it became clear that parties were a thing in the US. None of them did or do so. I don't even believe there are cities that try anything like this, as opposed to electing mayors and city legislatures.
National government models tend to exert significant influence over local and regional political thinking. Don't most countries with parliamentary systems at the national level also have something similar at the state/province/etc. level? I think our states mostly emulate the feds for the same reason that states/provinces/etc emulate the national government in other countries.
I think it tends to vary. After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.

(I do find examples of boroughs of large cities having basically parliamentary councils, but directly-elected mayors are everywhere.)
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »


Eric the .5b wrote: After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.
In many European countries the states, provinces, etc have their own parliaments that select the executive, rather than a gubernatorial election like in the US. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but Spain and Germany do it that way.

The mayor of Paris is chosen by the city council. Wikipedia says that Munich has a coalition government.

So it looks like at least some major cities have something akin to a parliamentary system.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

thoreau wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 01:26
Eric the .5b wrote: After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.
In many European countries the states, provinces, etc have their own parliaments that select the executive, rather than a gubernatorial election like in the US. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but Spain and Germany do it that way.

The mayor of Paris is chosen by the city council. Wikipedia says that Munich has a coalition government.

So it looks like at least some major cities have something akin to a parliamentary system.
Fair enough. But there still are directly-elected mayors in other European cities, such as in London. So there's some variation beyond that standard model in Europe, but not in the US.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 22:53
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 20:45
Aresen wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 19:15
I have read only a very few of the writings of the US Founding Fathers, so I am not really cognizant of the arguments surrounding the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

However, IIRC, the USFF thought they could avoid the development of political parties, which they saw as one of the flaws in the Westminster Parliament. The Congress was supposed to be a body of individual statesmen not beholden to parties.
Definitely a factor, but I don't think that can explain the lack of anything like a parliamentary system in subdivisions of the US. AFAICT, nothing stopped a state from having a legislature with a prime minister instead of separate legislatures and governors, even after it became clear that parties were a thing in the US. None of them did or do so. I don't even believe there are cities that try anything like this, as opposed to electing mayors and city legislatures.
National government models tend to exert significant influence over local and regional political thinking. Don't most countries with parliamentary systems at the national level also have something similar at the state/province/etc. level? I think our states mostly emulate the feds for the same reason that states/provinces/etc emulate the national government in other countries.
I think it tends to vary. After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.

(I do find examples of boroughs of large cities having basically parliamentary councils, but directly-elected mayors are everywhere.)
While not strict parliamentary systems, there are a lot of cities with council-manager systems. In those systems there is no elected executive and the elected city council appoints a manager to implement the legislative agenda of the council.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 01:26
Eric the .5b wrote: After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.
In many European countries the states, provinces, etc have their own parliaments that select the executive, rather than a gubernatorial election like in the US. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but Spain and Germany do it that way.

The mayor of Paris is chosen by the city council. Wikipedia says that Munich has a coalition government.

So it looks like at least some major cities have something akin to a parliamentary system.
Fair enough. But there still are directly-elected mayors in other European cities, such as in London. So there's some variation beyond that standard model in Europe, but not in the US.
The mayor of London is a pretty weak position and most of the power in London is with the borough councils and not the Greater London Authority. Also, London didn’t have a mayor until 2000
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

Mo wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 04:27
Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 22:53
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 20:45
Aresen wrote:
13 Dec 2019, 19:15
I have read only a very few of the writings of the US Founding Fathers, so I am not really cognizant of the arguments surrounding the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

However, IIRC, the USFF thought they could avoid the development of political parties, which they saw as one of the flaws in the Westminster Parliament. The Congress was supposed to be a body of individual statesmen not beholden to parties.
Definitely a factor, but I don't think that can explain the lack of anything like a parliamentary system in subdivisions of the US. AFAICT, nothing stopped a state from having a legislature with a prime minister instead of separate legislatures and governors, even after it became clear that parties were a thing in the US. None of them did or do so. I don't even believe there are cities that try anything like this, as opposed to electing mayors and city legislatures.
National government models tend to exert significant influence over local and regional political thinking. Don't most countries with parliamentary systems at the national level also have something similar at the state/province/etc. level? I think our states mostly emulate the feds for the same reason that states/provinces/etc emulate the national government in other countries.
I think it tends to vary. After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.

(I do find examples of boroughs of large cities having basically parliamentary councils, but directly-elected mayors are everywhere.)
While not strict parliamentary systems, there are a lot of cities with council-manager systems. In those systems there is no elected executive and the elected city council appoints a manager to implement the legislative agenda of the council.
Even in the purest form, the manager is those systems is much weaker than a prime minister and generally doesn't define policy. (And there are a lot of mixed versions that include a mayor, including those where the mayor appoints the manager.) But I'll accept that as vaguely parliamentary.

Though, for me, the popularity of council-manager systems with progressives is a strong strike against it...
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

Mo wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 04:30
Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 01:26
Eric the .5b wrote: After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.
In many European countries the states, provinces, etc have their own parliaments that select the executive, rather than a gubernatorial election like in the US. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but Spain and Germany do it that way.

The mayor of Paris is chosen by the city council. Wikipedia says that Munich has a coalition government.

So it looks like at least some major cities have something akin to a parliamentary system.
Fair enough. But there still are directly-elected mayors in other European cities, such as in London. So there's some variation beyond that standard model in Europe, but not in the US.
The mayor of London is a pretty weak position and most of the power in London is with the borough councils and not the Greater London Authority. Also, London didn’t have a mayor until 2000
Relatively weak executive is a hardly a knock against it. English and Welsh mayors have traditionally been weak.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by lunchstealer »

thoreau wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 13:22
Shem wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 12:03
Kill cable news.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Eric the .5b wrote:
Mo wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 04:30
Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 01:26
Eric the .5b wrote: After all, parliamentary systems do still have governors and mayors. As I think about it, I can't immediately think of any places that really use parliaments at a city level, even if the city is actually more populous than other countries that use parliaments.
In many European countries the states, provinces, etc have their own parliaments that select the executive, rather than a gubernatorial election like in the US. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but Spain and Germany do it that way.

The mayor of Paris is chosen by the city council. Wikipedia says that Munich has a coalition government.

So it looks like at least some major cities have something akin to a parliamentary system.
Fair enough. But there still are directly-elected mayors in other European cities, such as in London. So there's some variation beyond that standard model in Europe, but not in the US.
The mayor of London is a pretty weak position and most of the power in London is with the borough councils and not the Greater London Authority. Also, London didn’t have a mayor until 2000
Relatively weak executive is a hardly a knock against it. English and Welsh mayors have traditionally been weak.
It’s less pure strength of the mayor. It’s that “London” as a city is actually quite small (it’s also known as The Square Mile). The mayor of London is actually head of the Greater London Authority. It’s a coordinating body for services that run across all of the boroughs in Greater London. Things like the Met (police), fire, TfL (transport), planning, economic development and housing. GLA doesn’t even have taxation authority. It’s not even that the mayor doesn’t have the power to do much, it’s that the organization he is the head of is completely separate from the actual governing authorities.

For example, I work in City of London (occasionally in Tower Hamlets [home of Canary Wharf]) and live in the City of Westminster. They all have very separate governance.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

London and the City of London are two different entities, I'm aware (as I was aware of the rest of that). Sadiq Khan is the mayor of London, while William Russell is Lord Mayor of the City of London.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Eric the .5b wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 21:24
London and the City of London are two different entities, I'm aware (as I was aware of the rest of that). Sadiq Khan is the mayor of London, while William Russell is Lord Mayor of the City of London.
People say they live or work in London the way they say they live or work in D.C. or New York, though maybe they technically live or work in NoVa or Suburban Maryland or in Brooklyn or Queens. And London as a metropolitan area sprawls out as metro areas are wont to do. People who live in London but work in the City of London, e.g., barristers and financiers, say they work "in the City" in roughly the say way people say "the city" and mean they work in Manhattan.

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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Brooklyn and Queens are New York. London is a bit weirder as there’s the City, there’s also the postal district (places where you list your city as London in your address), there’s the old county of London and there’s Greater London. Then there’s the rough boundary of everything within the M25. Nobody really lives in the City of London (<10K). Everyone in the postal area can properly say they live in London and properly as well Greater London. Those in Watford and the like are more like the people in Alexandria.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

So which type of Brexit will Boris Johnson effect? The kind that has Northern Ireland's Catholics taking up arms? The kind that has Northern Ireland's Protestants taking up arms? The kind that isn't an actual Brexit anywhere except on paper? Or the kind that initiates a centuries-long tradition of British emissaries going to Brussels and formally requesting an extension?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

It's not just, but after hearing about IRA terrorism so much growing up, there's a weirdly fitting symmetry to imagining a unified Ireland dealing with terrorism.

But seriously, who the fuck knows, Thoreau? This is the uncharted wonder of Britain's superior democracy. ;)
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Mo wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 08:33
Brooklyn and Queens are New York. London is a bit weirder as there’s the City, there’s also the postal district (places where you list your city as London in your address), there’s the old county of London and there’s Greater London. Then there’s the rough boundary of everything within the M25. Nobody really lives in the City of London (<10K). Everyone in the postal area can properly say they live in London and properly as well Greater London. Those in Watford and the like are more like the people in Alexandria.
Sure, I'm not saying the comparison is exact, only that that is how inhabitants refer to where they live or work in those cities, however officially defined or delineated. For that matter, the Pentagon, though in Arlington VA, has a Washington mailing address and six different zip codes, roughly 25,000 employees and nobody lives there, either.

Locally, if asked where I lived I'd always say Arlington. Outside the D.C. Metro area, otoh, saying I lived or worked in Washington was easier, less confusing ("You live in a cemetery?" "You mean between Dallas and Ft. Worth" "Arlington, Mass?") and, as we say in that area, close enough for government work.

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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

Well, Britain is independent of the EU again. Still curious to see how all of this plays out.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

Jennifer wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 13:28
Well, Britain is independent of the EU again. Still curious to see how all of this plays out.
I think the main result will be slower growth in the UK, causing it to continue to slip back in per capita GDP vs Europe.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Aresen wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 15:33
Jennifer wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 13:28
Well, Britain is independent of the EU again. Still curious to see how all of this plays out.
I think the main result will be slower growth in the UK, causing it to continue to slip back in per capita GDP vs Europe.
Don't forget the part where we have to listen to people babble on about how that lower growth is not from Brexit. Its from immigrants.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

After the 11 month negotiation period, lines for non-EU citizens to enter EU countries is going to suuuuuuck
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

Mo wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 18:57
After the 11 month negotiation period, lines for non-EU citizens to enter EU countries is going to suuuuuuck
Which is why I will try to avoid Heathrow when flying to Europe.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by JasonL »

I really don't understand the libartarianish people who feel like brexit = great liberty. I get straight nationalists but I don't get something something freedom.

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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren »

I see no reason to believe that the UK will do better on their own, but at least there is the possibility.
Surely at some point the Germans are going to bring the hammer down in Chinatown. Which means economic collapse, which means chaos, which means war. The less entangled the UK is the better off they'll be.
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