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I sarted reading Quicksilver and couldn't ... quite ... finish it. Although there were several passages that were so fun to read that I wanted to find somebody, corner them, and read parts of the book out loud.

I did enjoy Snow Crash a lot. And The Diamond Age. And Cryptonomicon. (Although I had to reread that last about three times before I felt I really had a handle on everything that was going on in the book. It was a lot of fun to read, though.)

I even read Zodiac, which would serve as a primer to Stephenson if you wanted to introduce somebody to his works with something that's a lot shorter and a little less complicated. And it's barely science fiction.

I love, love, love Cryptonomicon. I mean, I am not exaggerating or being silly when I say (as cheesy as it sounds) that it changed my life. That book is my idea of perfectly-formed literature.

The Diamond Age was good up until the last act. It sort of felt like a first draft, like he'd had this great idea and then didn't really know how to finish it off.

I started Quicksilver a few years ago, and will probably read the entire cycle, but I agree with JD that he needs a little more editorial reining-in these days. Cryptonomicon is no slim volume of terse prose either, but Quicksilver felt awfully over-epic.

Speaking of Cryptonomicon, I am currently trying to wade into that one. The threads are currently only tied together with coincidences, not yet an actual plot, but I'm not that far in yet. Anyway, I have noted one significant continuity flaw. The guy who's in the navy is grampa Waterhouse, and he's the one who describes the the planes dropping the eggs. But then when shaftoe's getting interviewed by Ronnie, he describes that too, as if that were how he'd perceived Pearl. I assume that's just a continuity flaw, where Stephenson got confused as to who'd experienced what.

That's probably a good explanation. Shaftoe does mention the eggs, not mention Pearl, but it's presented in a way that kind of seems to be a reference to a previous description of the eggs.

My biggest problem with a book that big is that I like to read in improbable configurations (mostly in bed or on the sofa) and the more brick-esque books are hard to keep a hold of. Split into two volumes would be more convenient.

And BTW, I read and liked Gravity's Rainbow, so it's not like I just don't like that kind of work. GR, now there is a challenging bit of reading. Only novel I've ever read that expected you to have a pretty good grasp of European history, physics, chemistry, and about four different languages.

Has the man gotten any better at endings? Snow Crash ended just as abruptly as The Diamond Age, and I haven't read Cryptonomicon or the big series yet.

Snow Crash was like, "Shit, well, now it's over!" And there was that whole library sequence in the middle. The Diamond Age ended abruptly too, and he killed the coolest character in the first chapter.

The Baroque Cycle has an actual ending, which might be a first for him.

I think I see the story as an illustration of the theme of "Athena" vs. "Ares." Remember the conversation in the jail? True power is knowledge, and the smart and valiant are locked in a battle against the brutal and sociopathic. And smarts tend to beat out batshittiness and brutality in the long term. The current arena of battle is the cyberspace frontier -- what kind of people will control it and use it and profit from it? And you have people like hackers and principled men of action on the one side (that of Athena) against people like government thugs and batshit, perspective-lacking lawyers on the other ("Ares").

For the winners, the real reward is not the tangible, glittering stuff you are probably thinking of. Remember that in a couple of scenes, it is pointed out that all that glitters is not real, ultimate wealth. The real source of wealth is what people do, and insofar as the glittery stuff is concerned, its only value lies in what it enables people to do. In some circumstances, it can be used as a tool for enabling activities that make the world better. In other circumstances, it can be utterly useless. It can even be anti-wealth, making people worse off than they were before. What you do with the stuff is far more important than the stuff itself.

The modern-day story is not about a simple D&D treasure hunt. It can actually be seen as a continuation of the battle depicted in the WW2 story, when American and the allies fought against brutal batshit Nazis and batshit and brutal Japanese imperialists. Athena vs. Ares. The field and the fighters change from era to era. The struggle is eternal.

Thanks for making me think about this -- I didn't realize half the stuff I just wrote about until just now.

BTW, I hope I am not giving away too many details of the story. I am trying not to. Unfortunately, I myself am pretty insensitive to spoilers. I can usually enjoy a movie, for example, even after I've already read the script.

Okay, I honestly don't know which scene you mean there. Can you give me a little further hint?

I do remember at least three or four philosophical conversations about what what that glittery stuff is and isn't. Most explicitly when that Japanese guy talks to the guy with the mysterious medal and later when that same Japanese guy talks to the other two guys over Kobe beef.

Now, one guy does say at one point that his goal in life is attaining a certain amount of wealth that he refers to as "fuck-you money" -- being rich enough to have no worries. But he really wants to do more with his wealth than just that. He wants to use it to make future holocausts less likely. That is his obsession, his own personal battle against evil.

The bad guys seem to want it just because they want it. One guy is an explicit control freak, at least in most areas of his life.

Among the good guys, one of the very major and central characters doesn't seem to have a very definite use planned for the tangible treasure they seek. Even though, as the story develops, he does certainly does end up in a situation where he could use that wealth to dig himself out of a hole. But he really doesn't seem to care much about that. On the surface, it seems like he is on the hunt just for the ride, or for the chance to exercise his cleverness.

But really, for him the hunt for the glittery stuff is just a sidebar to his striving to be seen as worthy of the woman he loves. At one point, this character is asked very pointedly by a Significant Relative of his love object, "Do you think it's better if we get the [glittery stuff], or if [one of the bad guys] does?" and "Would you kill for it?" And the Major Character knows, as he considers his answer, that he is being judged by both his love object and her Significant Relative. Is he a worthy and good human being who will fight for good? Or is he willing to let this potentially powerful tool fall into the hands of evil?

So dire are the consequences of the latter, in fact, that his love object's Significant Relative compares killing for the stuff to being as urgent and justified as killing a home invader in self defense.

That's what the hunt is ultimately is all about for this Major Character. It's not so much about getting the stuff for himself as keeping it out of the hands of Evil people. Again, it's not just about finding a MacGuffin. It's about the battle of Good vs. Evil.

I didn't really find Snow Crash all that satisfying. An interesting world, but eventually it was a trifle silly in places and creepy in others (a semi-willing rape of a 14-year-old? tasteful). I didn't hate it, but it didn't make me want to wade through the rest of his stuff.

Well, the reluctance was in her fright leading up to it. I found her conversion to "willing" to be a bit of a stretch, to say the least. The dentata oversight was a Freudian slip, which indicates Stephenson knew it was bullshit.

It's still creepy.

It's been around 12-13 years since I read the book, so I might need to reread it. I thought she'd decided he didn't mean her any harm some period of time before that - though, after her, "Oh, Wow!", she was awfully sure he was going to be dangerously angry...

(Very tangentially, I also just realized that I can't even remember the ending to Neuromancer. Ah, well, might have to put that on the list.)

1) YT was 15, to be precise. Actually, I was pretty surprised that a respectable book could have a moderately explicit sex scene between 15-year-old girl and (as far as I can tell) thirty-ish guy. Surprised as in, "Hey, can they do that?"

On the other hand, 15-year-old girls do have sex sometimes, I'm told, and in a certain number of cases with older guys, though not usually that old. But it didn't exactly seem unrealistic. That you were creeped out, Sandy, is probably to your credit. However, my own creepability was probably blunted by the fact that earlier in the book, YT herself (unsolicited, on her own initiative, and to herself) briefly considers Hiro (who is about the same age as the other older character in question) as a potential sex partner. However, she concludes that while it would in some ways be enjoyable, any guy as decent as Hiro appears to be "would probably have some scruples about boffing 15-year-old girls," OWTTE.

Also, when I was in college I occasionally had to pick up my younger brother and drive him home from high school, along with some of his carpooling female classmates. When 15-year-old girls talk among themselves and don't give a damn whether you're listening or not (neither I nor my brother really counted as males, or even human beings, to them), you learn that 15-year-old girls can be pretty lusty beings, in their chirpy mindless way.

All told, I didn't think of the streetwise and rather jaded YT character as an innocent china doll.

2) As I recall, YT initially found her surroundings pretty scary. She was not initially afraid of the guy in question; she only found him scary when she learned that everyone else around was scared shitless of him. But then she came to think of him as a badass but her protector, scary to everyone else but her. That fosters bonding. And by this point, her fright was replaced by titillation.

I am not an expert in female psychology, but I have heard enough women say enough things to make me think this kind of thinking is not without its counterparts in the real world. See: "Bad boys, attraction to -- why?"

She doesn't become frightened of the guy again until after they have sex, because she absent-mindedly binked him with her "dentata" protective device, and she's afraid he'll be very angry with her.

3) During the actual sex scene, IIRC there is actually at least a moment shortly before climax when YT feels explicitly like she is in control of her partner. Earlier she feels like he's an irrestible force and she's just along for the ride, but it's not all one-sided. I never got the sense that she felt like a victim.

4) As for "conversions to 'willing,' I have read about more drastic "conversions" in scenes that are less consensual, and less well-written, in bodice-ripper romance paperbacks like the ones my mom occasionally left lying around the house. For whatever that's worth. Although in those, the heroine was usually a maiden of at least 16, IIRC, but rarely older than 17, for some reason.

And I don't read those either. :)

But seriously, that's a measure of how lame it was--it has to be compared to bodice-rippers for "see, at least it wasn't that bad..."

I'm not denying that 15-year-olds have groiny feelings, nor that they get groiny with 30-somethings (I lived in South Carolina for 20 years, so I really know this). But it wasn't really presented as "chirpy 15-year-old has groiny feelings and some guy takes advantage/goes for it" but "hey, if you emphasize the power, they end up wanting it."

I'm sure that even works quite a lot of the time, but it is still creepy and the effects of it weren't realistic. 15 year old girls aren't wisecracking, aged 30-somethings, no matter how much they may desperately try to act it (which again, is why we don't approve of such relations even though evolution says they're ready to go from a childbearing standpoint).

Like I said, I didn't necessarily hate it, but in the end I found it a bit masturbatory (and not in a good way) and lacking in depth. There was detail, and lots of cool ideas, but not depth.

you guys inspired me to re-read the diamond age. zoinks!

i've never been able to read gibson myself.

Now I have to re-read Idoru, which I own and have read but barely remember for some reason.

Of Idoru, I remember only really caring about the subplot with the fangirl who went to Japan and her online friend.

I just finished Diamond Age. I really liked the story and the world he created, but near the end I was kind of like "What?" It's like, he's following these characters around, and they're doing what they're doing, and you can see the drama between them. And then, suddenly, this bigger story comes out of nowhere. Yeah, there were some mentions of the Seed and the Fists and all that, but mostly it was about Nell and the Hackworths and Miranda. And then, suddenly, some giant, epic events happen that will change the world, and John Hackworth is suddenly revealed to be part of something much bigger, and Miranda is part of something much bigger, and I was like "Where did that come from?"

It was a fun read, but the way the bigger story behind it all just suddenly took over was kind of confusing.

It made sense to me too, I just wished that they would have said something about it before the last 50 pages.

I just finished The Baroque Cycle this weekend. I enjoyed the whole mess quite a bit, even the lengthy descriptions of London's street plan. I got the feeling that Stephenson wanted to add (or that his editors removed) a bit more about Sir Christopher Wren, but couldn't make enough connections to the rest of the book(s) to make it work. Plus, I like maps on books. I am a very visual person, so if a set of characters are going to be haunting a certain location for long, and I am expected to remember that the Kit-Katt Clubb is near Newgate Prison, there better be some supporting material, else I feel neglected.

Partly because DangerLass is reading the Barock Cycle as well, I have been able to get away with dropping divers Barock phrases into my vernacular, and if nobody stands in my way, connexion will be spelled with an 'x' forever and a day. Firefox spell check clears it every time, so I think I'll be alright.

My continuity beef with System of The World is that samurai katana were not made of watered steel. For a Nippophile like Stephenson, this seems to be an egregious error.

I really want to read the Baroque cycle, but I started the first book a while back and Eliza was so perfect I wanted to punch her in the face.

Still, I will probably give it another go soon when I have the time. I do love me some Neal Stephenson.

I seriously read that as "Neal Stephenson came over for drinks with friends tonight." I was going to fly into a jealous rage. But now, I'll just agree with the general consensus.

Timothy, not really. After the middle third of the book, the plot becomes much more event oriented and less economics-look-how-smart-I-am (and he is.) preachy. Maybe Neal figured that if we didn't get it by then....

EDIT to add: Very deus ex machina ending though. I was a bit disappointed.

Fuck yeah JD, hook up the Mieville! Get him drunk and make him draw the avanc!

Do it, JD!

I picked up The Confusion while donating plasma today since it was the only thing I had in my car (I still haven't finished Quicksilver, but I figured I'd catch up). Eliza continues to annoy me with her apparent perfection but holy shit, I love me some Jack Shaftoe. Even more than I loved Bobby Shaftoe in Cryptonomicon, and that was a lot. Plus, Jack's storyline has all the funniest lines.

but it's a picaresque novel. it's supposed to end like that.

but yeah he has some issues wrapping things up generally.

I just like that the dude had the balls to give his main character the name Hiro Protagonist. I mean, c'mon, that's ridiculous. Awesome, but ridiculous. It may go all the way to ricockulous.

actually, i would argue that he was just making a joke as well as dealing with his japanophillia.

(post-modernism never died, said he)

If it weren't Stephenson we were talking about, I could let it slide. But he's all "nip this" and "Nippon that," and he's right so you get edited. Nah nah na na nah.

Wouldn't it be Nippophilia?

he heh. "Nippo".

THE CATCHERINTHERYENICON
By Neal Stephenson and J.D. Salinger
2,450 pages

-------------------------------------------

Holden is on the couch.

He fucked up again. Holden fucks up a lot. He knows that. Boy, does he know it!

Holden is the Fuckupinator.

For Holden, fucking up usually provokes a noisy, seven-act, histrionically choreographed familial response that involves his father yelling, his mother weeping, and his little sister Pheobe crying, "Oh Holden, how could you?" But this time his parents are trying a completely different response-to-fucking-up approach. This one involves a couch, and no yelling.

The couch comes with a psychotherapist. The therapist comes with spectacles, a goatee and a Viennese accent. All very stereotypical. Just like goddamn Hollywood, Holden thinks.

Whenever the psychotherapist talks to Holden, in a Germanic accent redolent with umlauts, Holden imagines that he is being interrogated by a Nazi. Holden therefore tries to impart as little useful information as possible. If the psychotherapist were to uncover, say, an Oedipal complex or some goddamn thing, the Nazis might be able to use that to defeat the Allies.

The goddamn movies, he thinks. They will mess you up every time. I'm not kidding.

Holden realizes that the psycotherapist just asked him something and is waiting for Holden to respond. Just to pass the time, the therapist raises a questioning eyebrow.

Holden cracks. "Well, if you really want to know about it," Holden says, "I suppose you want to know about my background, and my childhood and my parents, and all that David Copperfield kind of crap. But frankly, that stuff just bores me."

The therapist nods compassionately. "Zen tell me about zis szchool ... Pencey Prep," he prods.

"I got kicked out," Holden says. "I'm always flunking out of schools. You might think I'd be really, really good at school, since I'm half Nipponese and all. I dunno. Maybe I'm just dumb. Although, supposedly, I'm really intelligent. They gave us a test. But, I dunno ... I guess I just don't find school very interesting." He shrugs.

"Zo. How dit you come to leaf Pencey Prep?"

"Well, one morning I had an appointment to see one of my teachers. Old Mr. Spencer. He killed me. He was about a thousand years old, I'm not kidding. Old Spencer wanted to talk to me about some crumby essay I'd written about the ancient Sumerians and all. I guess I didn't do so hot on that paper. So old Spencer wanted to talk to me about it. I wasn't in any big hurry to listen to him talk to me about the crumby job I did, if you want to know the truth, so I took my time having breakfast before I went to see him.

"That morning I had Captain Crunch for breakfast. This is a very big deal. I'm telling you. The key to eating Captain Crunch is that you have to have very, very cold milk. Milk that's just above freezing. Like the duck pond in Central Park in winter, right before it freezes over. But getting the milk perfect is just part of it. You have to apply it in a way that preserves the crunchiness of the Captain Crunch. You don't want it to get all soggy and all. Why the hell can't they make Captain Crunch that never gets soggy? Who the hell knows? I don't ... "

man stevo you need to get yourself a blog pronto.

Stevo, do you mind if I forward that to some friends of mine? I mean, seriously, why aren't you doing this sort of thing for a living? (Other than that you like eating and being able to afford a place to live, probably.)

Sure! Here is where you start.

I finally picked up Quicksilver again, but I kind of wish I hadn't. So far we've had:
- rape
- more rape
- torture
- horrible cruelty to cats
- description of kidney stone removal surgery (up through the taint, with no anesthetic!)

FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

What, the taint?
No, that's never a nice place.

not fiction, no.

but nonfiction, yes.

I'm loving the shit out of the whole Jack Shaftoe part of The Confusion, but I wasn't expecting fucking Eliza of the D'Ubervilles. Could you dump any MORE crap on her, Neal? Gah!

Confession: I totally came around from Eliza-hate to Eliza-love after she jerked off the cryptanalyst in the sleigh.

Tom Bombadil was one of the good things that Peter Jackson had to cut out of the LOTR saga. EDIT: I messed that up. What I meant to say was: It was a very good thing that Peter Jackson had to cut Tom Bombadil out of the LOTR saga/

I have yet to actually read the books, but I discovered this while on a road trip with some buddies, and we listened to about 6 CDs of the LOTR 18-CD audiobook that my friend had.

At some point I said, "This Tom Bombadil is retarded, isn't he?"

One thing I learned, after listening to LOTR on CD on a road trip, or watching the LOTR DVDs for a few hours, is that it affects your speech patterns.

"Hold! Let us stop at this Arby's to break our journey's fast!"

"I shall now use this Knife of Cleaving to hew myself a goodly portion of this mighty sandwich!"

Link, man!