So, if I refuse to bow before the tyranny of the masses, then I have to conclude that Julian might say "fuck the Olympics" rather than "I'm not going to fuck the Olympics", which means that Julian also refuses to bow before the tyranny of the masses.
Ah, now I see why he won't fuck you.
__________________
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
I have to assert again that Julian just may fuck the Olympics. Maybe he digs Asians.
__________________
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
This is a personal problem. There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable use of high explosives. This is not one of those exceptions.
Seriously, what? ...do they teach hypnosis in photography school? How do photographers get people to do the things they do? ...in front of a camera!?
I mean how many freakin' offensive photographs come down the pike every year? ...only to have the subject apologize for the photograph being so offensive?
AR- The primary reason I enjoy Chiefs games is that it's fun to watch football in person. When I was younger, I admit enjoying the chanting and cheering and all that. But that was when I was a teenager. These days, I find myself more squicked out by the drunken belligerent herding going on at those games. In fact, I'm likely as not to turn down ticket offers these days.*
Random, tangental anecdote: A couple of years ago, my reserve unit got to hold a large flag on the field during the national anthem. We rallied up in the player's parking lot and got to greet the players as they came in. (QB Elvis Grbac (sp?)) was the only one who took the time to come over and chat for a while.) We spent the rest of the pre-game in the tunnel next to the locker rooms, where we chatted with cheerleaders. Right after the warm up, the players made a point of lining up and shaking hands with all of us. I have no point here, except that it was a good day. As much as I enjoyed it, I think my mom and stepdad, who are season ticket holders, enjoyed seeing me on the field even more than I enjoyed being there.
*Seeing scores of stumbling drunks get into their SUVs to drive home and paying $20 to park a 15 minute walk from the stadium after sitting in line for 30 minutes to park also cuts down on the fun factor.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
I think you'd be lying if you said you didn't care at all how the US Olympic team did.
You're wrong. When I said I don't give a shit I meant it. The only reason I even watched part of the opening ceremonies was because Jeff had it on the TV. Since then I've paid zero attention to the games, I have no idea how many medals (if any) the USA has won, and I truly don't care. Even if the USA won every medal there is, it wouldn't improve my life one whit, it wouldn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world ... the only difference would be that commercials which I ignore would have different athletes making paid endorsements. Whoopee.
Even if the USA won every medal there is, it wouldn't improve my life one whit, it wouldn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world ...
Some guy on my team was telling a raunchy story at lunch the other day. It didn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world. By some metrics, it may have increased the net amount of injustice in the world. Still, it made me laugh.
"Net amount of injustice" is a terrible yardstick for a sporting event. You are in danger of taking yourself too seriously.
I don't care about the medal count, but I do enjoy watching talented athletes perform. I'm more into the track and field events, so I tend to just watch swimming and gymnastics highlights, but regardless of scope there's something pretty cool about getting to see a true master work his or her craft.
And, sure, swimming real fast, or jumping with the most gazelle-like grace or running around in circles the best don't actually improve the world at all, but everybody's got a thing, you know? Now the amount of money that goes into making the attendant spectacle is a bit...crazy...but the competition itself is still pretty cool.
__________________
Whenever I catch so much as a glimpse of pr0n, I suddenly turn into a sex-crazed barbarian, slashing and clawing my way through whatever and whomever until I find something to put my weiner into. -- Taktix
Even if the USA won every medal there is, it wouldn't improve my life one whit, it wouldn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world ...
Some guy on my team was telling a raunchy story at lunch the other day. It didn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world. By some metrics, it may have increased the net amount of injustice in the world. Still, it made me laugh.
"Net amount of injustice" is a terrible yardstick for a sporting event. You are in danger of taking yourself too seriously.
Oh, for God's sake, is the concept of "context" completely foreign to you? My comment was in response to Ayn Randian calling me a liar for saying I don't give a damn how many medals the US wins in the Olympics.
If you derive personal enjoyment from watching athletes, go for it. If you actually take vicarious pride in accomplishments you personally had absolutely nothing to do with ... well, I don't, and I don't appreciate AR insisting that I'm lying when I say this, anymore than I appreciated Ken's ridiculous assertion that my lack of interest in professional athletes who neither know nor care that I exist equates in any way to empathy or torture apologia.
Oh, for God's sake, is the concept of "context" completely foreign to you? My comment was in response to Ayn Randian calling me a liar for saying I don't give a damn how many medals the US wins in the Olympics.
Not that you should care for my $.02, but you have a way of writing that invites this. You make very, very strong statements - some of which you don't always mean.
Even in context, I don't understand what the appropriate response to the 'injustice in the world' comment was supposed to be.
Oh, for God's sake, is the concept of "context" completely foreign to you? My comment was in response to Ayn Randian calling me a liar for saying I don't give a damn how many medals the US wins in the Olympics.
Not that you should care for my $.02, but you have a way of writing that invites this. You make very, very strong statements - some of which you don't always mean.
Even in context, I don't understand what the appropriate response to the 'injustice in the world' comment was supposed to be.
In context, I was explaining what would be necessary in order for me to somehow give a rat's ass how many medals are won by athletes whose citizenship status happens to be the same as mine.
Tell me that I personally will benefit somehow, say that my taxes will go down if we win X many medals, and I'll watch the games with interest and root for Our Side. Tell me that we'll go back to outlawing torture if we win, and I'll shout "U! S! A!" louder than anybody. But as things stand now, I simply don't give a damn. It has no effect on me personally, nor does it have any effect on things which I care about despite their not affecting me personally.
See this is when I started talking about basic empathy in the last thread. I spent some time talking about the elitism too. I pointed out that empathy--the ability to identify with other people--isn't unusual. ...but I wouldn't push it too far. She seems to be in Warpath Mode.
Oh and I didn't expect a response to the last bit I wrote on the other page either, Jennifer. ...but thanks anyway.
Guys, did you know that while the Georgians and Russians were fighting, Georgia sent two recent immigrants from Brazil to play beach volleyball against the Russians?
I think that's a way to resolve fights. So, each disputant in this thread can designate two Brazilian immigrants to represent him or her in a beach volleyball tournament. Sound fair?
__________________
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
Oh and I didn't expect a response to the last bit I wrote on the other page either, Jennifer. ...but thanks anyway.
What response do you want? My entire argument boiled down to "I don't take vicarious pride in accomplishments which I personally took no part in, and I think people who do would be better served channeling their time and energy elsewhere;" you brought up a bunch of crap about how someone who doesn't say "go team go" is apparently lacking in empathy and more likely to be a torture apologist, and then you got annoyed when Fyodor and I called you on the huge problems with this analogy.
I'm not the one who first suggested any correlation between being a sports fan and being a torture apologist; you made that ridiculous assertion.
If there are any other trailer-trash people out there like me, by the way, people who can empathize and maybe even get enthusiastic when other people win at sports, if you haven't already noticed, we're starting another fantasy football league over in the Hobbies and Entertainments section...
You don't even have to know football, really, we'll walk you through it. ...but I think you do have to have some capacity to feel some sense of enthusiasm when people on your team score a touchdown. ...even if you weren't the quarterback who threw the pass. I don't see how you could play without that.
...I guess you could play but it probably wouldn't be much fun.
I think that's a way to resolve fights. So, each disputant in this thread can designate two Brazilian immigrants to represent him or her in a beach volleyball tournament. Sound fair?
Actually, I think all disputes should be settled by making two random Brazilians fight it out with capoeira.
EDIT: Much better example.
__________________
This is a personal problem. There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable use of high explosives. This is not one of those exceptions.
Seriously, what? ...do they teach hypnosis in photography school? How do photographers get people to do the things they do? ...in front of a camera!?
...
Photographers are a freakin' menace to society.
It's a learned skill. :-P
I almost posted something when the whole Miley Cyrus photo flap happened, because I was disgusted at how Cyrus and her camp immediately repudiated her actions. Under pressure from Disney, no doubt, which is why they first said "We don't have a problem with it" and then subsequently made a Vietnamese-POW-style statement along the lines of "I-confess-to-being-an-American-culture-pirate-who-has-committed-great-crimes-against-the-peaceful-people-of-Disney-and-I-am-not-reading-a-scripted-statement-no-really."
If you're photographed doing something that puts you in an unflattering light, man up to it. (I realize this may seem like an incongruous thing to say about a 15(?) year-old girl, but the principle is the same.) I realize that many things seem like a good or at least harmless idea at the time, like seeing if you can jump your truck over that ditch, or picking up that snake, but don't go around blaming other people for your lack of judgement.
An alum of the university where I teach won a medal in skeet shooting. Good PR for the university is always nice, although (1) it's not like we had much to do with it (it's not a school sport) and (2) I'm not sure that administrators will be rushing to brag that "Our students shoot better than anyone else in the country!"
__________________
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
Oh, for God's sake, is the concept of "context" completely foreign to you? My comment was in response to Ayn Randian calling me a liar for saying I don't give a damn how many medals the US wins in the Olympics.
Not that you should care for my $.02, but you have a way of writing that invites this. You make very, very strong statements - some of which you don't always mean.
Even in context, I don't understand what the appropriate response to the 'injustice in the world' comment was supposed to be.
In context, I was explaining what would be necessary in order for me to somehow give a rat's ass how many medals are won by athletes whose citizenship status happens to be the same as mine.
Tell me that I personally will benefit somehow, say that my taxes will go down if we win X many medals, and I'll watch the games with interest and root for Our Side. Tell me that we'll go back to outlawing torture if we win, and I'll shout "U! S! A!" louder than anybody. But as things stand now, I simply don't give a damn. It has no effect on me personally, nor does it have any effect on things which I care about despite their not affecting me personally.
All of that has nothing to do with "reducing the net injustice" in the world. As JasonL points out, that's a lame standard. I just had a Spicy Chicken Sandwich from Wendy's...'cause I was hungry. Does that have anything to do with the so-called "net injustice" in the world? No.
As you said, the necessary element for you to care about the Olympics is a "reduction in the net injustice in the world"....I mean, really? That's the only thing that would make you care?
And yes, dhex and Jennifer, it really is hard for me to believe that one wouldn't care one whit about how the United States Olympic team is doing. It's human nature to care.
__________________
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
And yes, dhex and Jennifer, it really is hard for me to believe that one wouldn't care one whit about how the United States Olympic team is doing. It's human nature to care.
it's human nature to care about stuff, but why does the category "stuff i care about" have to include the olympics?
__________________
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Oh, for God's sake, is the concept of "context" completely foreign to you? My comment was in response to Ayn Randian calling me a liar for saying I don't give a damn how many medals the US wins in the Olympics.
Not that you should care for my $.02, but you have a way of writing that invites this. You make very, very strong statements - some of which you don't always mean.
Even in context, I don't understand what the appropriate response to the 'injustice in the world' comment was supposed to be.
In context, I was explaining what would be necessary in order for me to somehow give a rat's ass how many medals are won by athletes whose citizenship status happens to be the same as mine.
Tell me that I personally will benefit somehow, say that my taxes will go down if we win X many medals, and I'll watch the games with interest and root for Our Side. Tell me that we'll go back to outlawing torture if we win, and I'll shout "U! S! A!" louder than anybody. But as things stand now, I simply don't give a damn. It has no effect on me personally, nor does it have any effect on things which I care about despite their not affecting me personally.
All of that has nothing to do with "reducing the net injustice" in the world. As JasonL points out, that's a lame standard. I just had a Spicy Chicken Sandwich from Wendy's...'cause I was hungry. Does that have anything to do with the so-called "net injustice" in the world? No.
As you said, the necessary element for you to care about the Olympics is a "reduction in the net injustice in the world"....I mean, really? That's the only thing that would make you care?
No, and if you'll read my words which you yourself quoted, you'll see what DOES make me care: it either affects me personally, or affects something I at least care about or find interesting despite it not affecting me personally. Who wins how many medals in the Olympics falls into neither category.
And that sandwich you ate at least tasted good, and made you less hungry. A funny joke might make you laugh. I get no similar enjoyment from the Olympics; the whole thing bores me.
Quote:
And yes, dhex and Jennifer, it really is hard for me to believe that one wouldn't care one whit about how the United States Olympic team is doing. It's human nature to care.
I second dhex's question: certainly it's human nature to care about things, but why must the Olympics be one of those things I care about? I still don't even know how many events have been finished, nor how many medals awarded, and I don't even care enough to Google it.
And I don't think any less of anyone for caring or not caring about the Olympics.
Sure. But Jennifer does think less of those who care, which is the irritating part.
Jennifer wrote:
Even if the USA won every medal there is, it wouldn't improve my life one whit, it wouldn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world ...
Again, I get the "improve my life" portion of that (kinda, that is, you lack identification with America's representatives in a world competition...but I digress), but what in the world does "decreasing the amount injustice in the world" have to do with the discussion?
__________________
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
But Jennifer does think less of those who care, which is the irritating part.
No, I don't think less of them; I just think they're wasting time and energy basking in vicarious pride rather than developing pride in their own accomplishments. But so long as they don't try to cast their vicarious pride as proof of superiority over those who don't share it, I don't particularly care one way or the other.
Quote:
Jennifer wrote:
Even if the USA won every medal there is, it wouldn't improve my life one whit, it wouldn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world ...
Again, I get the "improve my life" portion of that (kinda, that is, you lack identification with America's representatives in a world competition...but I digress), but what in the world does "decreasing the amount injustice in the world" have to do with the discussion?
It was, as I repeat for the nth time, listed as an example of something I'd care about even if it didn't affect me personally.
And for a self-described non-collectivist, you sure have a hard time accepting that not everyone derives their identity and self-worth from the collective. I tell you I don't care how many medals the USA wins, and you accuse me of lying?
Oh and I didn't expect a response to the last bit I wrote on the other page either, Jennifer. ...but thanks anyway.
What response do you want?
I want you to admit that I'm insightful, ingenious and irresistible.
Jennifer wrote:
My entire argument boiled down to "I don't take vicarious pride in accomplishments which I personally took no part in, and I think people who do would be better served channeling their time and energy elsewhere;" you brought up a bunch of crap about how someone who doesn't say "go team go" is apparently lacking in empathy and more likely to be a torture apologist, and then you got annoyed when Fyodor and I called you on the huge problems with this analogy.
I'm not the one who first suggested any correlation between being a sports fan and being a torture apologist; you made that ridiculous assertion.
You couldn't possibly have read my last few posts in the other thread and still think that. ...so I guess I should take the thanks back.
But Jennifer does think less of those who care, which is the irritating part.
No, I don't think less of them; I just think they're wasting time and energy basking in vicarious pride rather than developing pride in their own accomplishments.
Y'know Jennifer, I think one would have to describe that, at the very least, as critical (your subsequent declaration of tolerance notwithstanding). Can someone be critical of someone else without "thinking less" of them? Hmmm. I think my brain will start to hurt if I try to figure that one out, so I guess I'll just leave it be.....
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
My entire argument boiled down to "I don't take vicarious pride in accomplishments which I personally took no part in, and I think people who do would be better served channeling their time and energy elsewhere;"
It just seems difficult to read this any other way than "you are wasting your time by not doing IMPORTANT things". So, yeah, that comes off as a bit like you take yourself too seriously.
Tell me that I personally will benefit somehow, say that my taxes will go down if we win X many medals, and I'll watch the games with interest and root for Our Side.
Re: the photo of the Spanish basketball team, I had to look at the linked article to figure out what the hell they were doing. It looked to me like they were all using psychokinesis on the photographer or something.
__________________
A parasite feeding on bacteria growing on fungus growing on cow excrement? The only way the parasitic chain could get any longer would be if the cow excrement worked for the government. - Smacky
My entire argument boiled down to "I don't take vicarious pride in accomplishments which I personally took no part in, and I think people who do would be better served channeling their time and energy elsewhere;"
It just seems difficult to read this any other way than "you are wasting your time by not doing IMPORTANT things". So, yeah, that comes off as a bit like you take yourself too seriously.
So would I regain the respect of the collective here if I started bragging about how one of my countrymen won a bunch of gold medals in the swimming competition? Granted, I personally had nothing to do with it, and he still would've won those medals even if I'd dropped dead the day before the games started, or for that matter if I'd never been born ... but I should feel "pride" in his accomplishment anyway?
Guess what, everybody??!! Michael Phelps won lots of gold medals! He's from America -- just like I am! (Aresen and Ali, I feel very badly for you both, because since you're not American citizens Phelps' accomplishment does NOT reflect upon yourselves one bit. It does reflect upon ME, though. Ha! Sucks to be you! Rocks to be me! U! S! A!)
I read that Phelps eats pancakes every morning. I also eat pancakes! Not every morning, but still. And he was born in Baltimore, the same city I've visited on more than one occasion! But most importantly: he is an American, just as I am. That means anything he does reflects upon me. I really hope he doesn't go on to flunk some steroid test, though, because that also would reflect badly upon me and all other Americans here. His Wikipedia entry says he got caught drunk driving a few years back. Shame on him. Shame on me. Shame on all of us Americans here.
No, I don't think less of them; I just think they're wasting time and energy basking in vicarious pride rather than developing pride in their own accomplishments.
i think of all those assholes cheering at a concert instead of developing their own musical talents. sometimes they even demand encores. what a bunch of jerks.
anyhoo: a friend of mine refers to the mediasphere as having replaced the mythosphere, and uses the term "the Spectacle" in a similar fashion to debord but for different reasons. while i am not completely on board his train for several reasons - some of which have to do with the general tendency for this kind of thinking to lead to a weird, adbusterian-style elitism - i have a general aversion to theatre, spectacle (or Spectacle) and things of that nature. combine that with a general aversion to patriotism - i.e. being a fuel cell for the rich fucks who actually run the world - and the olympics can, as i said in my original post, totally suck one.
however, despite my stark stance on things like theatre or spectacle or whatever you want to call it, i don't think the people cheering in the stands are taking credit from those they're cheering from in some weird self-affirming lie. i think they're cheering because crowds can be engaging and athletics can be exciting for many, many people.
Quote:
Good God! That's just like saying, "I don't care that Firefly got canceled." And I can't wrap my head around that. It's unnatural.
you jest and all, good sir, but i've heard variations of that in real life. i actually watched a bit of said exchange once. it was very strange.
i once figured the equivalent would be my getting up in someone's face for not wanting to take on the unabridged edition of ulysses, along with a concordance and a mid-sized history of irish politics before ww1. oh and a primer on catholicism.
of course, you'd actually learn something from my incredibly unreasonable checklist and become a more well-rounded person for your efforts, but other than that the comparison is valid.
OH SNAP
__________________
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
No, I don't think less of them; I just think they're wasting time and energy basking in vicarious pride rather than developing pride in their own accomplishments.
i think of all those assholes cheering at a concert instead of developing their own musical talents. sometimes they even demand encores. what a bunch of jerks.
They're not taking personal pride in the musicians they're watching. That's the difference. If you enjoy watching a concert, or a sporting event, or whatever, FINE. My beef is with the idea that you -- you, personally -- should take pride in accomplishments you had nothing to do with.
I like the older songs of The Cure, but I'm not going to pretend their music is MY accomplishment. I like various actors, but if they win an Oscar that says nothing about me. I'll take credit where due for my own accomplishments, but I'm not going to ride on the coattails of someone else, who often doesn't even know I exist, and pretend their talents and abilities are somehow a reflection on me.
Let's just say that there's plenty of reason to be wary of taking joy in subsuming one's self to howling mobs.
Let's also stipulate that watching people achieve excellence is rewarding. We'll further stipulate that taking personal pride in someone else's accomplishment is pretty silly, as is having a serious emotional investment in sports in which one does not participate.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
I don't care about the Olympics either (though I do watch them a bit when I'm on the treadmill in the gym), so I obviously don't care whether or not you care.
You do seem to care that other people watch. You think they're doing something stupid. And in a certain way that's okay because it's their own business, but in a certain way it's not because people shouldn't do stupid things and we'd all be better off if they didn't. If as many people who watched the Olympics shot up crack or meth or heroin to the point of fucking up their lives, we'd have a pretty fucked up society and the ability to earn a living and live productive lives would be seriously impacted for the rest of us, even though it's their own business and I would never want it to be illegal. I do think doing those things are stupid and self-defeating and indirectly impact me and thus I would council against doing them. You seem to be putting watching the Olympics (or sports in general?) in the same boat, at least qualitatively if not quantitatively (i.e., not as bad). And hey, I'm not saying you're wrong. Only that if that's what you're saying, you should stick to your guns and explain yourself. And if not, you should probably try to understand why it seems that way to the rest of us!!
Personally, I would say that sports fandom, in some forms anyway, is kinda stupid. But in the realm of stupid things, it's pretty minor. And it's so universal, throughout history and cultures, that you may as well accept it! Personally....
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
I thought I was finished...oh, well.
I think we all remember high school pep rallies. Remember the people losing themselves in the joy of chanting with the mob? Remember how they had the genuine belief that their school was somehow better, and that it really mattered what school someone attended? Remember the bulging neck veins of the screaming students? How it resembled a two-minutes hate?
One should expect more from grown-ups.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
I don't care about the Olympics either (though I do watch them a bit when I'm on the treadmill in the gym), so I obviously don't care whether or not you care.
You do seem to care that other people watch. You think they're doing something stupid.
No. There is nothing stupid about watching something you find entertaining. There's nothing stupid about having fun. What's stupid is taking pride in someone else's accomplishment.
Mike Phelps has reason to be proud of the medals he won. His parents have reason to be proud of their son. His coach, trainer and nutritionist all helped play a role in his victories; they too can feel rightfully proud this morning. And if he has a girlfriend who's been willing to put up with his grueling training schedule, I can see her bragging a bit, too.
But not me. Not anybody here. NONE of us had a single damned thing to do with Phelps' accomplishments. His accomplishments reflect upon him, NOT upon us.
No, I don't think less of them; I just think they're wasting time and energy basking in vicarious pride rather than developing pride in their own accomplishments.
i think of all those assholes cheering at a concert instead of developing their own musical talents. sometimes they even demand encores. what a bunch of jerks.
They're not taking personal pride in the musicians they're watching.
FWIW, I think that in high school kids based a lot of their sense of who they were by what bands they liked and in a way identified with them. It's not the exact same thing as partisan sports fandom, but I'd say there's some overlap.
BTW Jennifer, even though partisan sports fans' moods rise and fall with their teams' fortunes and they're likely to speak of their favorite/local teams' fortunes in the first person plural, I don't think most fans really think that their teams' fortunes reflect on them personally. Maybe there are those who do, and maybe you've met them, but I really think that's a small minority who are really fully living in that alternate universe. For most, it's a metaphorical thing at most. You may identify with your teams' fortunes, but that doesn't mean you really think they reflect on your own quality as a person.
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
I think we all remember high school pep rallies. Remember the people losing themselves in the joy of chanting with the mob? Remember how they had the genuine belief that their school was somehow better, and that it really mattered what school someone attended? Remember the bulging neck veins of the screaming students? How it resembled a two-minutes hate?
No, but then at my High School ironic detachment was the closest thing we had to a sport. Now that I think about it, I've never actually been part of a crowd where that happened, nor seen one on anything other than a historical news reel. The other area schools seemed pretty similar. I wasn't aware such things still happened.
EDIT: For clarity
__________________
I CAUTION YOU / IN DEFEATING ORCS WE MAY FIND THE ONLY VILLAIN LEFT TO FACE IS OUR OWN PREJUDICE--qwantz.com
I think we all remember high school pep rallies. Remember the people losing themselves in the joy of chanting with the mob? Remember how they had the genuine belief that their school was somehow better, and that it really mattered what school someone attended? Remember the bulging neck veins of the screaming students? How it resembled a two-minutes hate?
dude, i played high school sports, including football, and i have no idea what the hell you're talking about. i was not into it because it was not playing football aka doing violence upon the bodies of others.
perhaps i should have gone to a more lynch-mobby school, though.
__________________
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
I don't care about the Olympics either (though I do watch them a bit when I'm on the treadmill in the gym), so I obviously don't care whether or not you care.
You do seem to care that other people watch. You think they're doing something stupid.
No. There is nothing stupid about watching something you find entertaining. There's nothing stupid about having fun. What's stupid is taking pride in someone else's accomplishment.
I would say what's stupid is taking that pride seriously. Emotions simply do not fall into the intellectual field. If you think you should feel that pride in the sense of earning it or really being different yourself because of it, that's kinda stupid. But just to feel it, that's something a very large portion of the human race experiences for no good reason than that we evolved to care what happens to our group versus the group that's trying to kick us out of the banana grove. But I question whether most sports fans take that pride seriously in that way. Well, hmm, maybe they do. Well what can I say, most people don't have the intellectual capacities we Grylliadians do! But still, you can be a sports fan and feel those emotions without thinking that they're meaningful in that way.
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
BTW Jennifer, even though partisan sports fans' moods rise and fall with their teams' fortunes and they're likely to speak of their favorite/local teams' fortunes in the first person plural, I don't think most fans really think that their teams' fortunes reflect on them personally.
If that were true, they wouldn't get offended by the presence of someone who supports the OTHER team. They wouldn't try picking fights with referees whose calls they disagreed with. You wouldn't read those occasional stories of fans turning into mobs and actually rioting when their team wins or loses. And you wouldn't see alleged individualists like Ayn Randian insist that I must be lying when I say I don't care how many medals the US wins, because, geez, it's human nature to care about such things! How can I not bask in the reflected glory of the collective? Surely I must be joking. Or perhaps there's just something not right about me, what with my belief that the accomplishments of another are not my accomplishments.
Dhex and Shem-In fairness, I went to an all-male Jesuit high school, and the atmosphere at pep rallies was very lynch-mobbish. I've seen very, very similar things at football games. There's always an undercurrent of group animosity and potential (sometimes actual) violence at those things. More than once, I've seen fights break out because someone was wearing the wrong shirt or had the nerve to cheer for a visiting team. Any time a large group of people get together with a common purpose, bad things can happen.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
BTW Jennifer, even though partisan sports fans' moods rise and fall with their teams' fortunes and they're likely to speak of their favorite/local teams' fortunes in the first person plural, I don't think most fans really think that their teams' fortunes reflect on them personally.
If that were true, they wouldn't get offended by the presence of someone who supports the OTHER team. They wouldn't try picking fights with referees whose calls they disagreed with. You wouldn't read those occasional stories of fans turning into mobs and actually rioting when their team wins or loses. And you wouldn't see alleged individualists like Ayn Randian insist that I must be lying when I say I don't care how many medals the US wins, because, geez, it's human nature to care about such things! How can I not bask in the reflected glory of the collective? Surely I must be joking. Or perhaps there's just something not right about me, what with my belief that the accomplishments of another are not my accomplishments.
Well like I said in my subsequent post, I suppose I really can't vouch for the unwashed masses. I'll revert to letting them defend themselves. But I don't think the sports fans here actually believe what you say all sports fans believe, and it's simply not necessary to be that clueless to be a sports fan. AR's comment is different, he just thinks the psychological phenomenon is so universal that surely you're prone to it, too. But I think he misses that even if there's a universal psychological phenomenon that underlies the nearly universal phenomenon of sports fandom, that doesn't mean that that psychology is universally applied in a similarly recognizable fashion throughout the human race.
EDITED.
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
...that's something a very large portion of the human race experiences for no good reason than that we evolved to care what happens to our group versus the group that's trying to kick us out of the banana grove.
And that's not a good thing. The herding impulse is, with few exceptions, (specifically, the desire to help people one is close to) the most atavistic and dangerous instinct we monkeys with delusions of grandeur possess.
Of couse
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
I've seen very, very similar things at football games. There's always an undercurrent of group animosity and potential (sometimes actual) violence at those things.
well, yeah.
you also see it at bars a lot, as you no doubt well know (you're an ems, iirc).
alcohol is, well, it's a thing. and it's often a problem thing.
it's struck me as i've gotten older that being young is a similar problem thing to alcohol if you're not careful.
jennifer go smoke a doobie you're getting kooky.
__________________
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
...that's something a very large portion of the human race experiences for no good reason than that we evolved to care what happens to our group versus the group that's trying to kick us out of the banana grove.
And that's not a good thing. The herding impulse is, with few exceptions, (specifically, the desire to help people one is close to) the most atavistic and dangerous instinct we monkeys with delusions of grandeur possess.
Of couse
But that doesn't mean that all manifestations of it are equally dangerous!
And what do you have against monkeys?
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
I went to co-ed high schools, but the lynch-mob attitude was there. Maybe even worse than what Number 6 had, because I went to a school that used to have a really bad football team, but my first year there, for some reason (new coach, new playbook, I dunno), the team started winning LOTS of games. They even made it to the regional or state finals. And I too was dragged out of class to attend mandatory pep rallies, and I was supposed to somehow feel proud about this.
I'd gone to that school only about a month. I went there not because of anything I said or did, but because my parents' house happened to be in THAT school zone. (Had we lived a mere two blocks down the street, I'd've gone to a different high school.) I didn't know anybody on the football team. I had nothing to do with their sudden success: I didn't write their strategies, I didn't throw the ball, NOTHING. And yet I personally was supposed to feel pride in the accomplishments of these guys I didn't know, because they happened to live in the same school zone as me. I was actually supposed to feel somehow superior to my friend who lived on my street a few blocks down, so that she went to a different school. I was -- at least for the duration of the pep rallies -- supposed to forget about myself as an individual and cheer along with everybody else for accomplishments that had ZERO effect on me whatsoever.
And the jocks and the teachers criticized my lack of "school spirit" just as you guys now are criticizing my lack of team spirit for the US Olympians. (I actually got in trouble once for reading a book during the rally.) I mean, good for Michael Phelps -- and I mean that sincerely -- but his accomplishments have nothing to do with me, and when you get right down to it I really don't care one way or the other. If it turns out he cheated somehow, and loses his medals, I still don't care. If he keeps his medals they're not going on my resume, and if I hang out with non-Americans I'm not going to brag about what a great swimmer my compatriot is. Nor will I get offended if they say they're not impressed with his accomplishment.
I've seen very, very similar things at football games. There's always an undercurrent of group animosity and potential (sometimes actual) violence at those things.
well, yeah.
you also see it at bars a lot, as you no doubt well know (you're an ems, iirc).
alcohol is, well, it's a thing. and it's often a problem thing.
it's struck me as i've gotten older that being young is a similar problem thing to alcohol if you're not careful.
jennifer go smoke a doobie you're getting kooky.
I agree. Which is why I tend to avoid bars-at least those I don't know to be populated primarily by non-redneck adults. And of course young folks. I avoid them and make sure they're off my lawn at all times.
BTW-I am in EMS, and let me tell you: if that job doesn't make you hate drunks, nothing will. Dirty secret of medicine. When drunks need IVs, they usually get large needles, whether they need them or not.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
i started ot and dt and still got criticized for my lack of school spirit.
it happens.
i do not envy those who have to wrangle drunks. i've only wrangled a few in my life and would like to keep it that way. having to wrangle them on a regular basis would be like having to live inside a headshop., except with the threat of terrible and unprovoked violence.
__________________
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
...that's something a very large portion of the human race experiences for no good reason than that we evolved to care what happens to our group versus the group that's trying to kick us out of the banana grove.
And that's not a good thing. The herding impulse is, with few exceptions, (specifically, the desire to help people one is close to) the most atavistic and dangerous instinct we monkeys with delusions of grandeur possess.
Of couse
But that doesn't mean that all manifestations of it are equally dangerous!
And what do you have against monkeys?
No, but they are almost all potentially dangerous.
As for monkeys-I have no strong opinions other than the belief that they are evolutionarily related to us. For company, I prefer felines or canines.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
What is kooky about my stated belief that the accomplishments of Michael Phelps do not reflect upon me?
Forget it Jennifer. I guess we're just guilty of being unmutual.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
I'd like to see a catalog of things Jennifer finds enjoyment in to see how fully rational fun can be.
My cousin graduated from Princeton with honors. I was all, "you go cous'!" The dude sitting next to him at the ceremony - meh. Entirely irrational. I did't do all that homework and wasn't that smart, so why should I feel anything at all? I should be reducing injustice in the world or something with those thoughts!
...that's something a very large portion of the human race experiences for no good reason than that we evolved to care what happens to our group versus the group that's trying to kick us out of the banana grove.
And that's not a good thing. The herding impulse is, with few exceptions, (specifically, the desire to help people one is close to) the most atavistic and dangerous instinct we monkeys with delusions of grandeur possess.
Of couse
But that doesn't mean that all manifestations of it are equally dangerous!
And what do you have against monkeys?
No, but they are almost all potentially dangerous.
I think the danger of someone sitting in his living room and rooting for his team on the tele is pretty minimal.
Number 6 wrote:
As for monkeys-I have no strong opinions other than the belief that they are evolutionarily related to us. For company, I prefer felines or canines.
I thought you were saying that mob mentality made us as dangerous as monkeys! Whom I admit I wouldn't want let loose in my living room where they don't belong, but I don't know if they're any more dangerous to each other than independent thinking individualistic humans! :-)
__________________
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Also, why are people acting like there is a binary switch where you're either a mindless mob follower hooligan nationalist or you are a rational distinterested global injustice reducer? Isn't there a missing middle in there somewhere where nearly all of humanity resides?
No. There is nothing stupid about watching something you find entertaining. There's nothing stupid about having fun. What's stupid is taking pride in someone else's accomplishment.
I take pride in the accomplishments of my friends and family members although I took no part in them. I don't think that's stupid.
For that matter, I enjoy collegiate and professional sports rivalries precisely because they're meaningless. Obviously, therefore, people who take them seriously are at the very least being foolish, but that doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed even if they do boil down to something arbitrary like rooting for one set of uniforms over the other. The best example of this is the Dallas Cowboys who are hated by all right thinking people everywhere who justly take pride in every Cowboy loss at the hands of any other team but especially whenever the Redskins win.
I also think less of thoreau for not thinking less of us.
Firefly shouldn't have been canceled. No discussion on this point is possible.
I never said I had a problem with people watching sports in their living room or elsewhere. I even mentioned that I have enjoyed both. And I pick a team and root for them. But I'm not going to pretend that I am not made uneasy around howling herds, nor am I going to pretend that I view the desire to lose ones self in the mob as a base urge. I guess I'm an elitist that way. I'm also not going to pretend that the victories or losses of team of people I don't know should affect my pride in myself, my city, or my nation.
As for those who enjoy the comforting press of the herd: Enjoy away. But don't expect me to join in.
__________________
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Obviously, therefore, people who take them seriously are at the very least being foolish
Y'know, it occurs to me that it's possible to take sporting loyalties too seriously while believing that their existence signals some retrograde personality trait that ought to be fought against. Most of the bad things that it causes happen in the presence of other, often worse things. Watching out for those things is just as easy as watching out for group loyalty, and it has the benefit of not providing all sorts of false positives.
__________________
I CAUTION YOU / IN DEFEATING ORCS WE MAY FIND THE ONLY VILLAIN LEFT TO FACE IS OUR OWN PREJUDICE--qwantz.com
I never said you were lying, Jennifer. Take it down to about an eleven. I said I was skeptical.
if your thing, No. 6 and Jennifer, is not to participate in "mob-esque hooliganism", or whatever you want to call it, great...but you shouldn't really be all that surprised that those of us who do enjoy the occasional football game or "go team go" rally might resent it a hair when we're called members of a a hostile mob and hooligans.
And as DA said, all right-thinking and decent people hate the Cowboys. This isn't an emotional or debatable issue...it's a fact of life.
__________________
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
I'd like to see a catalog of things Jennifer finds enjoyment in to see how fully rational fun can be.
As I've said multiple times here, the problem isn't "having fun," but the idea that I should take pride in the accomplishment of someone who has absolutely NOTHING to do with me. Why do you find it so difficult to wrap your mind around the difference between "having fun" and "feeling pride"? I have fun when I go to amusement parks. I don't feel pride over the fact that there's an amusement park in the vicinity.
Quote:
My cousin graduated from Princeton with honors. I was all, "you go cous'!" The dude sitting next to him at the ceremony - meh. Entirely irrational. I did't do all that homework and wasn't that smart, so why should I feel anything at all? I should be reducing injustice in the world or something with those thoughts!
Of course you're going to care about your family. I said earlier on this thread that I fully expect Michael Phelps' parents are feeling much pride in their son today. The question is: should *I* feel pride in Michael Phelps, because he was born within the same national borders that I was? Should *I* brag to non-Americans about what a great swimmer he is, which somehow reflects upon me?
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Reposted from page 2 the previous thread:
So, if I refuse to bow before the tyranny of the masses, then I have to conclude that Julian might say "fuck the Olympics" rather than "I'm not going to fuck the Olympics", which means that Julian also refuses to bow before the tyranny of the masses.
Ah, now I see why he won't fuck you.
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I have to assert again that Julian just may fuck the Olympics. Maybe he digs Asians.
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Here is the Spanish basketball team expressing newfound tolerance and understanding they learned at the Olympics.
This is a personal problem. There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable use of high explosives. This is not one of those exceptions.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Pathetically clueless at best.
The sun is barely up and the streets are already filled with drunken Scots. That can't be good. - mk
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Well, honestly, the photographer did ask them to do that.
...and when a photographer asks you to do something, that makes it much less offensive.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Seriously, what? ...do they teach hypnosis in photography school? How do photographers get people to do the things they do? ...in front of a camera!?
I mean how many freakin' offensive photographs come down the pike every year? ...only to have the subject apologize for the photograph being so offensive?
Photographers are a freakin' menace to society.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
AR- The primary reason I enjoy Chiefs games is that it's fun to watch football in person. When I was younger, I admit enjoying the chanting and cheering and all that. But that was when I was a teenager. These days, I find myself more squicked out by the drunken belligerent herding going on at those games. In fact, I'm likely as not to turn down ticket offers these days.*
Random, tangental anecdote: A couple of years ago, my reserve unit got to hold a large flag on the field during the national anthem. We rallied up in the player's parking lot and got to greet the players as they came in. (QB Elvis Grbac (sp?)) was the only one who took the time to come over and chat for a while.) We spent the rest of the pre-game in the tunnel next to the locker rooms, where we chatted with cheerleaders. Right after the warm up, the players made a point of lining up and shaking hands with all of us. I have no point here, except that it was a good day. As much as I enjoyed it, I think my mom and stepdad, who are season ticket holders, enjoyed seeing me on the field even more than I enjoyed being there.
*Seeing scores of stumbling drunks get into their SUVs to drive home and paying $20 to park a 15 minute walk from the stadium after sitting in line for 30 minutes to park also cuts down on the fun factor.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
You're wrong. When I said I don't give a shit I meant it. The only reason I even watched part of the opening ceremonies was because Jeff had it on the TV. Since then I've paid zero attention to the games, I have no idea how many medals (if any) the USA has won, and I truly don't care. Even if the USA won every medal there is, it wouldn't improve my life one whit, it wouldn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world ... the only difference would be that commercials which I ignore would have different athletes making paid endorsements. Whoopee.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Some guy on my team was telling a raunchy story at lunch the other day. It didn't decrease the net amount of injustice in the world. By some metrics, it may have increased the net amount of injustice in the world. Still, it made me laugh.
"Net amount of injustice" is a terrible yardstick for a sporting event. You are in danger of taking yourself too seriously.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I don't care about the medal count, but I do enjoy watching talented athletes perform. I'm more into the track and field events, so I tend to just watch swimming and gymnastics highlights, but regardless of scope there's something pretty cool about getting to see a true master work his or her craft.
And, sure, swimming real fast, or jumping with the most gazelle-like grace or running around in circles the best don't actually improve the world at all, but everybody's got a thing, you know? Now the amount of money that goes into making the attendant spectacle is a bit...crazy...but the competition itself is still pretty cool.
Whenever I catch so much as a glimpse of pr0n, I suddenly turn into a sex-crazed barbarian, slashing and clawing my way through whatever and whomever until I find something to put my weiner into. -- Taktix
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Jason is right. If you enjoy sports, no other justification is necessary.
That said, I can understand why someone may get the impression from many sports enthusiasts that their belief that they enjoy it is a mirage.
That said, one may get the same impression of people who debate political and social issues! :-)
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Oh, for God's sake, is the concept of "context" completely foreign to you? My comment was in response to Ayn Randian calling me a liar for saying I don't give a damn how many medals the US wins in the Olympics.
If you derive personal enjoyment from watching athletes, go for it. If you actually take vicarious pride in accomplishments you personally had absolutely nothing to do with ... well, I don't, and I don't appreciate AR insisting that I'm lying when I say this, anymore than I appreciated Ken's ridiculous assertion that my lack of interest in professional athletes who neither know nor care that I exist equates in any way to empathy or torture apologia.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
If this is going to get so heated, I see no choice but to resume talking about beach volleyball. No way will anybody get hot or bothered over.....
OK, never mind.
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Not that you should care for my $.02, but you have a way of writing that invites this. You make very, very strong statements - some of which you don't always mean.
Even in context, I don't understand what the appropriate response to the 'injustice in the world' comment was supposed to be.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
In context, I was explaining what would be necessary in order for me to somehow give a rat's ass how many medals are won by athletes whose citizenship status happens to be the same as mine.
Tell me that I personally will benefit somehow, say that my taxes will go down if we win X many medals, and I'll watch the games with interest and root for Our Side. Tell me that we'll go back to outlawing torture if we win, and I'll shout "U! S! A!" louder than anybody. But as things stand now, I simply don't give a damn. It has no effect on me personally, nor does it have any effect on things which I care about despite their not affecting me personally.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
See this is when I started talking about basic empathy in the last thread. I spent some time talking about the elitism too. I pointed out that empathy--the ability to identify with other people--isn't unusual. ...but I wouldn't push it too far. She seems to be in Warpath Mode.
Oh and I didn't expect a response to the last bit I wrote on the other page either, Jennifer. ...but thanks anyway.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Guys, did you know that while the Georgians and Russians were fighting, Georgia sent two recent immigrants from Brazil to play beach volleyball against the Russians?
I think that's a way to resolve fights. So, each disputant in this thread can designate two Brazilian immigrants to represent him or her in a beach volleyball tournament. Sound fair?
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
What response do you want? My entire argument boiled down to "I don't take vicarious pride in accomplishments which I personally took no part in, and I think people who do would be better served channeling their time and energy elsewhere;" you brought up a bunch of crap about how someone who doesn't say "go team go" is apparently lacking in empathy and more likely to be a torture apologist, and then you got annoyed when Fyodor and I called you on the huge problems with this analogy.
I'm not the one who first suggested any correlation between being a sports fan and being a torture apologist; you made that ridiculous assertion.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
If there are any other trailer-trash people out there like me, by the way, people who can empathize and maybe even get enthusiastic when other people win at sports, if you haven't already noticed, we're starting another fantasy football league over in the Hobbies and Entertainments section...
http://www.grylliade.org/node/953#comment-84012
You don't even have to know football, really, we'll walk you through it. ...but I think you do have to have some capacity to feel some sense of enthusiasm when people on your team score a touchdown. ...even if you weren't the quarterback who threw the pass. I don't see how you could play without that.
...I guess you could play but it probably wouldn't be much fun.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Actually, I think all disputes should be settled by making two random Brazilians fight it out with capoeira.
EDIT: Much better example.
This is a personal problem. There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable use of high explosives. This is not one of those exceptions.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
It's a learned skill. :-P
I almost posted something when the whole Miley Cyrus photo flap happened, because I was disgusted at how Cyrus and her camp immediately repudiated her actions. Under pressure from Disney, no doubt, which is why they first said "We don't have a problem with it" and then subsequently made a Vietnamese-POW-style statement along the lines of "I-confess-to-being-an-American-culture-pirate-who-has-committed-great-crimes-against-the-peaceful-people-of-Disney-and-I-am-not-reading-a-scripted-statement-no-really."
If you're photographed doing something that puts you in an unflattering light, man up to it. (I realize this may seem like an incongruous thing to say about a 15(?) year-old girl, but the principle is the same.) I realize that many things seem like a good or at least harmless idea at the time, like seeing if you can jump your truck over that ditch, or picking up that snake, but don't go around blaming other people for your lack of judgement.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
is that really so hard to believe?
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
An alum of the university where I teach won a medal in skeet shooting. Good PR for the university is always nice, although (1) it's not like we had much to do with it (it's not a school sport) and (2) I'm not sure that administrators will be rushing to brag that "Our students shoot better than anyone else in the country!"
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
All of that has nothing to do with "reducing the net injustice" in the world. As JasonL points out, that's a lame standard. I just had a Spicy Chicken Sandwich from Wendy's...'cause I was hungry. Does that have anything to do with the so-called "net injustice" in the world? No.
As you said, the necessary element for you to care about the Olympics is a "reduction in the net injustice in the world"....I mean, really? That's the only thing that would make you care?
And yes, dhex and Jennifer, it really is hard for me to believe that one wouldn't care one whit about how the United States Olympic team is doing. It's human nature to care.
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
it's human nature to care about stuff, but why does the category "stuff i care about" have to include the olympics?
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
No, and if you'll read my words which you yourself quoted, you'll see what DOES make me care: it either affects me personally, or affects something I at least care about or find interesting despite it not affecting me personally. Who wins how many medals in the Olympics falls into neither category.
And that sandwich you ate at least tasted good, and made you less hungry. A funny joke might make you laugh. I get no similar enjoyment from the Olympics; the whole thing bores me.
I second dhex's question: certainly it's human nature to care about things, but why must the Olympics be one of those things I care about? I still don't even know how many events have been finished, nor how many medals awarded, and I don't even care enough to Google it.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Good God! That's just like saying, "I don't care that Firefly got canceled." And I can't wrap my head around that. It's unnatural.
:)
"My intellect is gigantic, monstrous, terrifying."
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I, for one, am quite capable of believing that Jennifer doesn't care about the Olympics. I am also quite capable of believing that others do care.
And I don't think any less of anyone for caring or not caring about the Olympics.
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Sure. But Jennifer does think less of those who care, which is the irritating part.
Again, I get the "improve my life" portion of that (kinda, that is, you lack identification with America's representatives in a world competition...but I digress), but what in the world does "decreasing the amount injustice in the world" have to do with the discussion?
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
No, I don't think less of them; I just think they're wasting time and energy basking in vicarious pride rather than developing pride in their own accomplishments. But so long as they don't try to cast their vicarious pride as proof of superiority over those who don't share it, I don't particularly care one way or the other.
It was, as I repeat for the nth time, listed as an example of something I'd care about even if it didn't affect me personally.
And for a self-described non-collectivist, you sure have a hard time accepting that not everyone derives their identity and self-worth from the collective. I tell you I don't care how many medals the USA wins, and you accuse me of lying?
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I want you to admit that I'm insightful, ingenious and irresistible.
You couldn't possibly have read my last few posts in the other thread and still think that. ...so I guess I should take the thanks back.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Y'know Jennifer, I think one would have to describe that, at the very least, as critical (your subsequent declaration of tolerance notwithstanding). Can someone be critical of someone else without "thinking less" of them? Hmmm. I think my brain will start to hurt if I try to figure that one out, so I guess I'll just leave it be.....
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
It just seems difficult to read this any other way than "you are wasting your time by not doing IMPORTANT things". So, yeah, that comes off as a bit like you take yourself too seriously.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Once again, America's Finest Newspaper provides.
I CAUTION YOU / IN DEFEATING ORCS WE MAY FIND THE ONLY VILLAIN LEFT TO FACE IS OUR OWN PREJUDICE--qwantz.com
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Re: the photo of the Spanish basketball team, I had to look at the linked article to figure out what the hell they were doing. It looked to me like they were all using psychokinesis on the photographer or something.
A parasite feeding on bacteria growing on fungus growing on cow excrement? The only way the parasitic chain could get any longer would be if the cow excrement worked for the government.
- Smacky
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
So would I regain the respect of the collective here if I started bragging about how one of my countrymen won a bunch of gold medals in the swimming competition? Granted, I personally had nothing to do with it, and he still would've won those medals even if I'd dropped dead the day before the games started, or for that matter if I'd never been born ... but I should feel "pride" in his accomplishment anyway?
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Guess what, everybody??!! Michael Phelps won lots of gold medals! He's from America -- just like I am! (Aresen and Ali, I feel very badly for you both, because since you're not American citizens Phelps' accomplishment does NOT reflect upon yourselves one bit. It does reflect upon ME, though. Ha! Sucks to be you! Rocks to be me! U! S! A!)
I read that Phelps eats pancakes every morning. I also eat pancakes! Not every morning, but still. And he was born in Baltimore, the same city I've visited on more than one occasion! But most importantly: he is an American, just as I am. That means anything he does reflects upon me. I really hope he doesn't go on to flunk some steroid test, though, because that also would reflect badly upon me and all other Americans here. His Wikipedia entry says he got caught drunk driving a few years back. Shame on him. Shame on me. Shame on all of us Americans here.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Everybody (who's not a foreigner) sing along with me:
And I'm proud to be an American,
where Mike Phelps learned how to swim
and I won't forget the credit goes
to me as well as him
So I gladly stand up
next to you
and brag on him today
'cause there ain't no doubt I helped him win
God bless the USA.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
i think of all those assholes cheering at a concert instead of developing their own musical talents. sometimes they even demand encores. what a bunch of jerks.
anyhoo: a friend of mine refers to the mediasphere as having replaced the mythosphere, and uses the term "the Spectacle" in a similar fashion to debord but for different reasons. while i am not completely on board his train for several reasons - some of which have to do with the general tendency for this kind of thinking to lead to a weird, adbusterian-style elitism - i have a general aversion to theatre, spectacle (or Spectacle) and things of that nature. combine that with a general aversion to patriotism - i.e. being a fuel cell for the rich fucks who actually run the world - and the olympics can, as i said in my original post, totally suck one.
however, despite my stark stance on things like theatre or spectacle or whatever you want to call it, i don't think the people cheering in the stands are taking credit from those they're cheering from in some weird self-affirming lie. i think they're cheering because crowds can be engaging and athletics can be exciting for many, many people.
you jest and all, good sir, but i've heard variations of that in real life. i actually watched a bit of said exchange once. it was very strange.
i once figured the equivalent would be my getting up in someone's face for not wanting to take on the unabridged edition of ulysses, along with a concordance and a mid-sized history of irish politics before ww1. oh and a primer on catholicism.
of course, you'd actually learn something from my incredibly unreasonable checklist and become a more well-rounded person for your efforts, but other than that the comparison is valid.
OH SNAP
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
They're not taking personal pride in the musicians they're watching. That's the difference. If you enjoy watching a concert, or a sporting event, or whatever, FINE. My beef is with the idea that you -- you, personally -- should take pride in accomplishments you had nothing to do with.
I like the older songs of The Cure, but I'm not going to pretend their music is MY accomplishment. I like various actors, but if they win an Oscar that says nothing about me. I'll take credit where due for my own accomplishments, but I'm not going to ride on the coattails of someone else, who often doesn't even know I exist, and pretend their talents and abilities are somehow a reflection on me.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
actually, if it's done right, they're having a religious experience. that's a lot worse!
i really think you're blowing this stuff out of proportion to a proportion that is way out of where it should be.
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Let's just say that there's plenty of reason to be wary of taking joy in subsuming one's self to howling mobs.
Let's also stipulate that watching people achieve excellence is rewarding. We'll further stipulate that taking personal pride in someone else's accomplishment is pretty silly, as is having a serious emotional investment in sports in which one does not participate.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Jennifer,
I don't care about the Olympics either (though I do watch them a bit when I'm on the treadmill in the gym), so I obviously don't care whether or not you care.
You do seem to care that other people watch. You think they're doing something stupid. And in a certain way that's okay because it's their own business, but in a certain way it's not because people shouldn't do stupid things and we'd all be better off if they didn't. If as many people who watched the Olympics shot up crack or meth or heroin to the point of fucking up their lives, we'd have a pretty fucked up society and the ability to earn a living and live productive lives would be seriously impacted for the rest of us, even though it's their own business and I would never want it to be illegal. I do think doing those things are stupid and self-defeating and indirectly impact me and thus I would council against doing them. You seem to be putting watching the Olympics (or sports in general?) in the same boat, at least qualitatively if not quantitatively (i.e., not as bad). And hey, I'm not saying you're wrong. Only that if that's what you're saying, you should stick to your guns and explain yourself. And if not, you should probably try to understand why it seems that way to the rest of us!!
Personally, I would say that sports fandom, in some forms anyway, is kinda stupid. But in the realm of stupid things, it's pretty minor. And it's so universal, throughout history and cultures, that you may as well accept it! Personally....
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I thought I was finished...oh, well.
I think we all remember high school pep rallies. Remember the people losing themselves in the joy of chanting with the mob? Remember how they had the genuine belief that their school was somehow better, and that it really mattered what school someone attended? Remember the bulging neck veins of the screaming students? How it resembled a two-minutes hate?
One should expect more from grown-ups.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
No. There is nothing stupid about watching something you find entertaining. There's nothing stupid about having fun. What's stupid is taking pride in someone else's accomplishment.
Mike Phelps has reason to be proud of the medals he won. His parents have reason to be proud of their son. His coach, trainer and nutritionist all helped play a role in his victories; they too can feel rightfully proud this morning. And if he has a girlfriend who's been willing to put up with his grueling training schedule, I can see her bragging a bit, too.
But not me. Not anybody here. NONE of us had a single damned thing to do with Phelps' accomplishments. His accomplishments reflect upon him, NOT upon us.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
FWIW, I think that in high school kids based a lot of their sense of who they were by what bands they liked and in a way identified with them. It's not the exact same thing as partisan sports fandom, but I'd say there's some overlap.
BTW Jennifer, even though partisan sports fans' moods rise and fall with their teams' fortunes and they're likely to speak of their favorite/local teams' fortunes in the first person plural, I don't think most fans really think that their teams' fortunes reflect on them personally. Maybe there are those who do, and maybe you've met them, but I really think that's a small minority who are really fully living in that alternate universe. For most, it's a metaphorical thing at most. You may identify with your teams' fortunes, but that doesn't mean you really think they reflect on your own quality as a person.
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
No, but then at my High School ironic detachment was the closest thing we had to a sport. Now that I think about it, I've never actually been part of a crowd where that happened, nor seen one on anything other than a historical news reel. The other area schools seemed pretty similar. I wasn't aware such things still happened.
EDIT: For clarity
I CAUTION YOU / IN DEFEATING ORCS WE MAY FIND THE ONLY VILLAIN LEFT TO FACE IS OUR OWN PREJUDICE--qwantz.com
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
dude, i played high school sports, including football, and i have no idea what the hell you're talking about. i was not into it because it was not playing football aka doing violence upon the bodies of others.
perhaps i should have gone to a more lynch-mobby school, though.
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I would say what's stupid is taking that pride seriously. Emotions simply do not fall into the intellectual field. If you think you should feel that pride in the sense of earning it or really being different yourself because of it, that's kinda stupid. But just to feel it, that's something a very large portion of the human race experiences for no good reason than that we evolved to care what happens to our group versus the group that's trying to kick us out of the banana grove. But I question whether most sports fans take that pride seriously in that way. Well, hmm, maybe they do. Well what can I say, most people don't have the intellectual capacities we Grylliadians do! But still, you can be a sports fan and feel those emotions without thinking that they're meaningful in that way.
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
If that were true, they wouldn't get offended by the presence of someone who supports the OTHER team. They wouldn't try picking fights with referees whose calls they disagreed with. You wouldn't read those occasional stories of fans turning into mobs and actually rioting when their team wins or loses. And you wouldn't see alleged individualists like Ayn Randian insist that I must be lying when I say I don't care how many medals the US wins, because, geez, it's human nature to care about such things! How can I not bask in the reflected glory of the collective? Surely I must be joking. Or perhaps there's just something not right about me, what with my belief that the accomplishments of another are not my accomplishments.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Dhex and Shem-In fairness, I went to an all-male Jesuit high school, and the atmosphere at pep rallies was very lynch-mobbish. I've seen very, very similar things at football games. There's always an undercurrent of group animosity and potential (sometimes actual) violence at those things. More than once, I've seen fights break out because someone was wearing the wrong shirt or had the nerve to cheer for a visiting team. Any time a large group of people get together with a common purpose, bad things can happen.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Well like I said in my subsequent post, I suppose I really can't vouch for the unwashed masses. I'll revert to letting them defend themselves. But I don't think the sports fans here actually believe what you say all sports fans believe, and it's simply not necessary to be that clueless to be a sports fan. AR's comment is different, he just thinks the psychological phenomenon is so universal that surely you're prone to it, too. But I think he misses that even if there's a universal psychological phenomenon that underlies the nearly universal phenomenon of sports fandom, that doesn't mean that that psychology is universally applied in a similarly recognizable fashion throughout the human race.
EDITED.
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
And that's not a good thing. The herding impulse is, with few exceptions, (specifically, the desire to help people one is close to) the most atavistic and dangerous instinct we monkeys with delusions of grandeur possess.
Of couse
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
well, yeah.
you also see it at bars a lot, as you no doubt well know (you're an ems, iirc).
alcohol is, well, it's a thing. and it's often a problem thing.
it's struck me as i've gotten older that being young is a similar problem thing to alcohol if you're not careful.
jennifer go smoke a doobie you're getting kooky.
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Double post deleted.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
But that doesn't mean that all manifestations of it are equally dangerous!
And what do you have against monkeys?
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I went to co-ed high schools, but the lynch-mob attitude was there. Maybe even worse than what Number 6 had, because I went to a school that used to have a really bad football team, but my first year there, for some reason (new coach, new playbook, I dunno), the team started winning LOTS of games. They even made it to the regional or state finals. And I too was dragged out of class to attend mandatory pep rallies, and I was supposed to somehow feel proud about this.
I'd gone to that school only about a month. I went there not because of anything I said or did, but because my parents' house happened to be in THAT school zone. (Had we lived a mere two blocks down the street, I'd've gone to a different high school.) I didn't know anybody on the football team. I had nothing to do with their sudden success: I didn't write their strategies, I didn't throw the ball, NOTHING. And yet I personally was supposed to feel pride in the accomplishments of these guys I didn't know, because they happened to live in the same school zone as me. I was actually supposed to feel somehow superior to my friend who lived on my street a few blocks down, so that she went to a different school. I was -- at least for the duration of the pep rallies -- supposed to forget about myself as an individual and cheer along with everybody else for accomplishments that had ZERO effect on me whatsoever.
And the jocks and the teachers criticized my lack of "school spirit" just as you guys now are criticizing my lack of team spirit for the US Olympians. (I actually got in trouble once for reading a book during the rally.) I mean, good for Michael Phelps -- and I mean that sincerely -- but his accomplishments have nothing to do with me, and when you get right down to it I really don't care one way or the other. If it turns out he cheated somehow, and loses his medals, I still don't care. If he keeps his medals they're not going on my resume, and if I hang out with non-Americans I'm not going to brag about what a great swimmer my compatriot is. Nor will I get offended if they say they're not impressed with his accomplishment.
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I agree. Which is why I tend to avoid bars-at least those I don't know to be populated primarily by non-redneck adults. And of course young folks. I avoid them and make sure they're off my lawn at all times.
BTW-I am in EMS, and let me tell you: if that job doesn't make you hate drunks, nothing will. Dirty secret of medicine. When drunks need IVs, they usually get large needles, whether they need them or not.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
i started ot and dt and still got criticized for my lack of school spirit.
it happens.
i do not envy those who have to wrangle drunks. i've only wrangled a few in my life and would like to keep it that way. having to wrangle them on a regular basis would be like having to live inside a headshop., except with the threat of terrible and unprovoked violence.
"Yeah, but my character would be all swav and deboner." - Warren
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
No, but they are almost all potentially dangerous.
As for monkeys-I have no strong opinions other than the belief that they are evolutionarily related to us. For company, I prefer felines or canines.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
What is kooky about my stated belief that the accomplishments of Michael Phelps do not reflect upon me?
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Forget it Jennifer. I guess we're just guilty of being unmutual.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
What a bizarre thread.
I'd like to see a catalog of things Jennifer finds enjoyment in to see how fully rational fun can be.
My cousin graduated from Princeton with honors. I was all, "you go cous'!" The dude sitting next to him at the ceremony - meh. Entirely irrational. I did't do all that homework and wasn't that smart, so why should I feel anything at all? I should be reducing injustice in the world or something with those thoughts!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I think the danger of someone sitting in his living room and rooting for his team on the tele is pretty minimal.
I thought you were saying that mob mentality made us as dangerous as monkeys! Whom I admit I wouldn't want let loose in my living room where they don't belong, but I don't know if they're any more dangerous to each other than independent thinking individualistic humans! :-)
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Also, why are people acting like there is a binary switch where you're either a mindless mob follower hooligan nationalist or you are a rational distinterested global injustice reducer? Isn't there a missing middle in there somewhere where nearly all of humanity resides?
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Jennifer,
I agree that the admonishments you received to have more "school spirit" were stupid.
Never underestimate the stupidity of intelligent people!!
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I take pride in the accomplishments of my friends and family members although I took no part in them. I don't think that's stupid.
For that matter, I enjoy collegiate and professional sports rivalries precisely because they're meaningless. Obviously, therefore, people who take them seriously are at the very least being foolish, but that doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed even if they do boil down to something arbitrary like rooting for one set of uniforms over the other. The best example of this is the Dallas Cowboys who are hated by all right thinking people everywhere who justly take pride in every Cowboy loss at the hands of any other team but especially whenever the Redskins win.
I also think less of thoreau for not thinking less of us.
Firefly shouldn't have been canceled. No discussion on this point is possible.
"love is like porn, you know" -- Ali
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I never said I had a problem with people watching sports in their living room or elsewhere. I even mentioned that I have enjoyed both. And I pick a team and root for them. But I'm not going to pretend that I am not made uneasy around howling herds, nor am I going to pretend that I view the desire to lose ones self in the mob as a base urge. I guess I'm an elitist that way. I'm also not going to pretend that the victories or losses of team of people I don't know should affect my pride in myself, my city, or my nation.
As for those who enjoy the comforting press of the herd: Enjoy away. But don't expect me to join in.
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind... I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions.."-Emerson
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
Y'know, it occurs to me that it's possible to take sporting loyalties too seriously while believing that their existence signals some retrograde personality trait that ought to be fought against. Most of the bad things that it causes happen in the presence of other, often worse things. Watching out for those things is just as easy as watching out for group loyalty, and it has the benefit of not providing all sorts of false positives.
I CAUTION YOU / IN DEFEATING ORCS WE MAY FIND THE ONLY VILLAIN LEFT TO FACE IS OUR OWN PREJUDICE--qwantz.com
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
I never said you were lying, Jennifer. Take it down to about an eleven. I said I was skeptical.
if your thing, No. 6 and Jennifer, is not to participate in "mob-esque hooliganism", or whatever you want to call it, great...but you shouldn't really be all that surprised that those of us who do enjoy the occasional football game or "go team go" rally might resent it a hair when we're called members of a a hostile mob and hooligans.
And as DA said, all right-thinking and decent people hate the Cowboys. This isn't an emotional or debatable issue...it's a fact of life.
Someday if Jennifer serves on a jury, I would like to see her rise up in the middle of the trial and yell, "No, you're out of water! And you're out of water! They're out of water! This whole trial is out of water!". - Stevo Darkly-
Re: But Julian still won't fuck the Olympics
As I've said multiple times here, the problem isn't "having fun," but the idea that I should take pride in the accomplishment of someone who has absolutely NOTHING to do with me. Why do you find it so difficult to wrap your mind around the difference between "having fun" and "feeling pride"? I have fun when I go to amusement parks. I don't feel pride over the fact that there's an amusement park in the vicinity.
Of course you're going to care about your family. I said earlier on this thread that I fully expect Michael Phelps' parents are feeling much pride in their son today. The question is: should *I* feel pride in Michael Phelps, because he was born within the same national borders that I was? Should *I* brag to non-Americans about what a great swimmer he is, which somehow reflects upon me?