I have no freaking idea how to make this video not start every time the thread is accessed.
__________________
"Discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes" -Marcel Proust


Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Maybe it's just me, but I have this crazy idea that if somebody has a nuclear bomb, or you think they might get one, it's preferable to talk nicely to them.
I know it sounds like a lunatic idea, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
All I ask is a good horse and a fair day.
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
What does this have to do with me?
As to Iran getting a nuclear bomb: I assume that they are as self-interested and non-suicidal as any other government. Yes, their leader says some stupid shit, but lots of nuclear powers have leaders who say stupid shit and even do stupid shit. For instance, the President of the US claims that God told him to invade Iraq....so he did. Despite all that, the US has not used nuclear weapons since WWII. Or take the Soviets: Despite adhering to the dumbest economic system ever devised, they did not commit suicide by using nukes.
I'm not 100% confident in this analysis. It's the sort of thing that only has to be wrong once and it's all over. But the costs of 100% certainty are huge, and the process of seeking 100% certainty might actually make other regimes feel sufficiently threatened that they decide to seek nukes. So as horrible as it would be if this analysis is wrong, trying to prevent proliferation by force is probably just as dangerous--disastrous short-term consequences, and self-defeating long-term consequences (i.e. increasing the incentive to get nukes).
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
thoreau- I just needed a catchy title, and your name (and the threads regarding the neo-cons) happened to come to mind. Also, because you need to stop worrying about the neo-cons and their bomb dropping tendencies, and you might just as well love the neo-cons and their bombs.
"Discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes" -Marcel Proust
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
I don't take the Terrorist Nuke that seriously for Thoreau's reasoning. Nukes bring you into the Big Boy club, and the Big Boy club, just like the Rotter's Club, has rules in exchange for the privileges. One rule is, no ostentatious displays of wealth--you can have nukes, let it subtly be known you have them, and that they are big, and impressive, and sure to cause any foreign government to swoon, I mean look at the size of -- but I digress. So there's much more for a state to gain by having nukes than it does in using them. Using them gets you booted from the club. It's just Not Done, old boy.
And using them by proxy? Well, you see what happened to Afghanistan after some people based there used some planes on a building. Imagine if they were responsible for a nuke? Remember, the other players would still have lots and lots of working nukes, and the rules, well, the club protects its own.
This is a personal problem. There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable use of high explosives. This is not one of those exceptions.
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Did anyone note the neo-con doublethink in that video?
On the one hand, the US and Israel have to take action against Iran because the threat of action has not deterred them.
On the other hand, once the US and Israel do take action, the threat posed by the US and Israel will deter the Iranians from retaliating?
All I ask is a good horse and a fair day.
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
I agree, but there's one problem with expanding the club: The more members in the club, the harder it becomes to finger the source of any smuggled nuke. Iran? Pakistan? North Korea? Corrupt guard at Russian nuke site?
With only 4 suspects, I'm not too worried. But 5 suspects? 6 suspects? It becomes harder with each name on the list. Of course, it's not like there'd be zero information in the aftermath of a smuggled nuke going off, but still.... And with each name on the list, that's one more chance for the calculation (that leaders are self-interested and non-suicidal) will fail, or one more chance for a self-interested and non-suicidal leader to trust the wrong scientist, or put the wrong guard at the gate of the nuclear facility.
If I thought that a forcible intervention against an aspiring nuclear power would work without too much fallout (figurative and literal) I'd deviate from my non-interventionist stance. But I look at the way that an intervention could get out of control, and the body count could rise to 5 digits or more...and I'm not sure that a 5 digit body count is an acceptable loss to prevent a low-probability event, even a very catastrophic one.
So I'm left accepting that deterrence of self-interested and non-suicidal leaders is all we have to go on.
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Again, what do you gain from a smuggled nuke if it isn't known it's yours? If you (or your surrogates) intimate it's yours, then the international community will support a response, or at least not seriously oppose one. Much better to have one and be brought to the bargaining tables you wouldn't have access to or sufficient clout at previously.
This isn't my argument for expanding the club. I'd be more worried that as the club gets bigger, the consequences of any one member using nukes gets smaller. But they'd still probably use them in the old-fashioned way--think India/Pakistan.
Intervention might work--it worked on Iraq, for example. But yes, it's not my first choice.
This is a personal problem. There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable use of high explosives. This is not one of those exceptions.
Re: How Thoreau Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Good point. If you let somebody else set it off and take the credit for it and you say nothing, then you get the satisfaction of seeing your enemies burn but you don't get to say "See, this is what happens when you fuck with me!" Because as soon as you say that, they say "Well, this is what happens when you fuck with us!" and you get zero strategic or geopolitical benefit from having shown what happens to those who fuck with you.
Still, like you say, as the club gets bigger the chances increase that something will go wrong.
Intervention worked in Iraq that one time, but the lesson it sent to everybody was that nuclear facilities need to be deep underground and as decentralized as possible. I don't think that intervention will work against another aspiring nuclear power. The necessary interventions will involve unacceptable measures.
"the only thing worse than a freeper is a blue state freeper that doesn't realize they're a freeper." -dhex
hoisted by their own waterboard!
-dhex