grylliade.org Free minds. Free markets. Free beer.

Ever since I got my foot run over by a bicyclist riding on the sidewalk (who I then checked into the wall as he tried to ride away without apologizing; very satisfying, especially when he called the cops and wound up getting the ticket because I was just trying to "get the bike off my foot") I've had absolutely no sympathy for bicyclists. When they're coming at me, I don't move out of the way. But then, being 6' 3" and big enough to take a hit from most things this side of a car has it's advantages.

yep, some bicyclists are assholes, but I'd still prefer them on a bike than in a car.

In Manchester, there are a bunch of teenagers who ride around on those stupid little BMX bikes in the middle of the road (on two-way roads) popping wheelies and endos and paying absolutely no attention to the fact that they are making cars travel at 5 mph behind them until you honk at them.

Also, not to threadjack, but Shem is 6'3", I'm 6'3", IIRC Thoreau and dhex are both giants as well, and I've noticed a lot of Free Staters are well over the 6'1" mark (especially Glenn Jacobs aka Kane, who makes me feel like a midget). Is there something about libertarianism that draws not only the fringe sides of the political bell curve, but the height and weight bell curve as well?

Oddly enough, half the bloggers I read have been writing on this subject lately, all from a pro-bike perspective. Here's Will Wilkinson with links to Megan McArdle and Matt Yglesias.

In principle, I'm pro-bike; in practice, I rarely drive or bike, and spend most of my time on a college campus where the dynamic is completely different anyway.

In a way, Critical Mass is the perfect demonstration. It entertains the participants while making anyone who comes across it even less sympathetic to them. Thus, it's self-reinforcing and can continue indefinitely. :)

I don't want to murder somebody. That's a bit too much. But, I wouldn't mind having a necklace made out of human teeth. In fact, that'd be kind of awesome.

I had a bicyclist spit a loogie on me as he rode past me in the park, because I was on his biking (and walking, and running, and rollerblading) path. So I have a bias here.

I think that as a pedestrian, you should be allowed to carry a springy willow branch that you can use to lash the backs of any offending cyclists.

Especially if they do something to you. But if not, just because, so they learn to keep their distance.

Better yet, shove the willow branch between the spokes of the wheel.

i don't think mopeds de-tool anyone.

i have a lot of sympathy for cyclists in nyc...in theory.

unfortunately i live in a place where a fairly high percentage of cyclists are total dicks who ride on the sidewalk and get pissy when they don't have a perfect straightaway to zip down. some of my friends ride quite a bit, but they're part of the reasonable 80% rather than the 20% who give everyone else a bad name.

that said, the nypd crackdown on critical mass is fucking absurd.

I understand bicyclists frustrations as there is no good place for them in most places.

You got car traffic which moves alot faster than bikes and pedestrian traffic which moves alot slower than bikes. Both car and pedestrians have right of way (either by law or by law of queen mary). Whenever I ride my "road" bike on the road, I risk being taken out by cars and when I ride my bike on the pavement in the parks, I have to watch out because pedestrians can do unexpected things that are difficult to react to unless I want to slow down to walking speed everytime I pass them. I wish there was a place that I could ride where there was traffic that moved my speed.

Having said that, I can't imagine attacking a guy in a subaru.

Go to the Netherlands.

I started cycling for exercise 10 days ago (did I mention that upthread already?). I have to say that I don't like the anti-cyclist attitudes expressed in this thread.

Naah, I was just complaining and being an asshole myself. It was intentional. Giving you all a hard time. I actually pretty much agree with all the above. I usually never put myself in a position where I am stuck behind a 15 mph cyclist. I usually just drive aggressively, scare the bejesus out of them, and they usually give me all the road I want. But if that happens to me as a cyclist, I'd be mad at the aggressive driver. Double standard, I know. :-)

I have been trying to keep my temper, since when the topic of urban bicyclists comes up, I often lose it. Besides which, I have some friends who bike. But today I saw such a perfect example of the entitled asshole bicyclist mentality... The scene: crossing Third Avenue at Eighth Street. Dramatis personae: numerous pedestrians of all ages, races, colors, and creeds; one bicyclist, a pretty young woman in a dress, on an unremarkable bike.

The pedestrians have the light, and are thick in the crosswalk. There are no cars stopped at the crosswalk on the southbound side of Third. The bicyclist lady approaches and slows...I figure she'll stop; she almost has to, since the pedestrians are so thick. But no, she slows just enough to shove her way through the crowd against the light, almost hitting an older woman as she goes, right in front of me. In retrospect, the idea of clotheslining her off her bike is appealing, but at the time, I was just stunned by how brazen she was.

Not a day goes by when I don't see bicyclists running red lights, making illegal turns, going the wrong way, riding on the sidewalk, talking on the phone while riding, etc. Often doing more than one of these things at once. And if it were just bike messengers, I could sort of understand it, but it's not; it's all bikers. (Actually, the serious riders with spandex and helmets tend to be the best. I presume they're not going to risk fucking up a $5000 boke by doing something stupid.) I swear to God one day I am going to snap and start carrying a shilleillagh and fungoing bikers right off their bikes.

Although I see both sides (assholery is assholery, whether perpetrated on two wheels, two feet, or four wheels), I must admit a certain amount of annoyance at what seem like anti-cyclist attitudes. I've been an on-again/off-again cyclist for a long time, and I ride both mountain and road bikes. I've almost been killed or seriously hurt by drivers multiple times, and can honestly say that on every occasion, it was the driver's stupidity or attempt to hurt me that was the cause of it.*
Look, I obey traffic laws, although I do sometimes fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs if the intersection in clear. There are two reasons for this: the first is that I can see and hear better than people inside a vehicle, and generally know if the intersection is clear well before I reach it; second, on the road bike, I am clipped into the pedals. If I come to a complete stop, I have to unclip, put my foot down, and clip in again once I am moving. This is not a big deal, but is a pain in the ass.
When I ride downtown, I usually have to slow down for traffic, since on the road bike, cruising at 25 mph is easy. Most cars don't move that fast here. I don't impede anyone. I often ride on rural highways, but only those with shoulders. I sometimes ride out of door range, but again, that's downtown, and I'm usually moving at or above the speed limit anyway. And yes, I will use a left turn lane or sit in the center of a lane when turning left. Doing it any other way is a good way to get run over.
Having said all that-I have been run off the road several times, even when on the shoulder. I've had things thrown at me. Remember here that I am on a road bike, clipped in. If the bike goes down, so do I. IOW, if some redneck moron decides to put me in the drainage ditch to impress his buddies or because I am different, there is a very good chance I will be seriously injured. There's a small chance I will be killed. It's my fucking life these assholes are playing with.
In Kansas City last year, a cyclist was killed when a driver passed him too closely and knocked the cyclist under his truck's wheels. The driver didn't even get a ticket.
The Pitch, the local alt-weekly, ran a feature last year on all of the cyclists killed or maimed in the area. Most of the incidents were the driver's fault. Still, charges were almost never brought against the drivers.
I'd advise the bike haters to try riding several times a week for about a month. Follow the rules. Stay out of cars' way. And observe how many times you are almost run over, or subject to intentional harassment.

And now for some caveats: As I said at the beginning of this rant, assholery is assholery. But the fact that some cyclists are assholes doesn't justify smearing all of them. Think about your daily drive: how many carless, inattentive, or just plain non-driving assholes do you encounter? Why not rail about how car drivers are assholes? Because all of us are smart enough to avoid smearing a group because some subset of that group is composed of dickheads.

Now-on to the jogging path thing. (Sidewalks are not meant for cyclists. Period.) There is an etiquette here. Just like on the road, slower traffic should stay to the right. Faster traffic (runners and cyclists) should stay left. When passing a slower person, the proper procedure is to slow down slightly, move as far left as is safe and practical, and when about 20-30 feet away call out, "On your left!" Calling that out is NOT an insult or abuse. It is a safety measure for both the rider and the walker. Cyclists don't want to startle you, and we certainly don't want you to do something silly like freaking out and jumping in our path. "On your left!" translates to "Hey, I'm about to pass you. Just keep doing what you are doing, and I will move around you. There is no need to jump off the path. There is no need to stop and pull your children against your legs. I am not a marauding psycho. I am not reckless out here, and I will not run you over, unless you do something stupid like jumping to the left. Even then, I will probably dump the bike rather than hitting you. So just keep walking or running. I'll handle the rest. Thank you and enjoy this park we're sharing." That's a lot to be conveyed in one hail, but believe me- most people who use those paths regularly understand what is being said. Polite and thinking cyclists, walkers, and joggers realize that we all want to use the path, and that if we are civil to each other, we can all enjoy ourselves safely.
Civility, btw, does not include walking your strollers four abreast and taking up the whole path, and then getting snippy when cyclists pull off the path to pass you. You don't take up the entire sidewalk on a busy city block (I hope.) Don't do it on the path either.

I know this rant is tangental to the discussion, and that the good folks at Grylliade do no deserve to be recipients of this tirade. So-sorry about that.

As for the incident that prompted this thread: The protest ride is silly and counter productive. That being said, I don't know what happened or who was justified (if anyone) and neither does anyone else here.

*The times I have hurt myself while trail riding, are all my fault. The scrapes and bruises are just part of single-track riding.

it's the post. it's what they do.

i cross the brooklyn bridge on foot several times a week. (it's a summer thing) some of the cyclists are ok. some are total cocks. just like the runners and the power walkers.

the tourists, on the other hand, are all total cocks. oh let me stop in the middle of the fucking brooklyn bridge to take pictures who could possibly be in our way oh yeah great idea after this let's get some applebees and maybe go see the waterfalls and oh yeah don't forget the nikes and mass suicide later yup yup good idea right after we get some novelty t shirts.

Hell, I often do after encountering some of the worse ones on my drive home.

While I definitely agree that what you describe is awful, a lot of what bikers complain about is the flip side to truckers' complaints. "Oh, God, there are cars all over the place, dominating traffic. My vehicle is not a car, and the vast majority of people driving cars don't give me sufficiently special treatment - even when it's actually necessary."

Go to any driver's ed class, and you won't see more than two minutes where the word "bicycle" so much as comes up. Drivers aren't trained to react properly to bicycles, and roads largely aren't designed to accommodate them and cars at the same time. Aside from cases of actual malice, every problem cyclists face is more or less to be expected. One rides at one's own risk.

so what's wrong with 10 and 2?

Yes, 3 and 9. The trick is that no one keeps them there all the time. On long straights, you don't need to.
10 and 2 is kinematically wrong. Pressure on the wheel is not even, you can't feel what the road and tires are telling you, and your turns, should you try them in that position will not be smooth. Not only that, but the kind of quick action needed to correct a line and counter a skid is impossible to pull off smoothly at 10 and 2. Watch race videos, or film of test drivers. Where are their hands? There's a reason for that.

Shuffle steering-what Warren describes as hand-over-hand- is stupid and dangerous.
I nearly got thrown out of a required USMC driver's ed course when the instructor told us that when braking hard, one should put the car in neutral. That kind of stupid shit could get someone killed.

Look-here's the short version of what everyone needs to know:

1) The car goes where your eyes go. Look far ahead. In an emergency, look where you want to go, NOT at what you want to avoid.
2) Weight transfer matters. Learn how it works. Learn to feel it happen.
3) If you can't induce and recover from a skid in your car, learn. Preferably today.
4) See the line through the turn. Follow it. Learn to adjust it as necessary.
5) Learn to use the brakes. If you're doing that thing where you increase brake pressure as you approach a stop sign, moving from maybe 10% braking to 70% or so by the time you stop, you may want to spend some time getting to know your brake pedal. Also: LOCKING THE BRAKES DOES NOT MAKE YOU STOP FASTER. THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. You'd be amazed how many people don't know this.
6) There are eggs on the pedals. Don't crack them.
7) Smoothness Counts.
8) Think ahead.
9) Obervation, Evaluation, Decision Action. It's a loop, and should be going non-stop.
10) Speed doesn't kill. Mistakes an inattention do.

6, that's cool to know.

i haven't driven since 2001, but still.

Sandy- I understand what you're saying, but they really don't. I can get out of them fairly quickly under most circumstances. And the performance edge is enormous. Clips more or less double your peddling efficiency. At stop signs, I slow way, way down, and stop if I have any doubts.
Of course, I know that road riding is risky. Probably more so than trail riding. I'm careful out there. All I ask is that drivers pay attention and don't amuse themselves by actively trying to kill me. The trick, by the way is not to assume you're invisible. That's not enough. Assume that drivers want to kill you.

When you say this, you mean that brake pressure should remain consistent and low as you approach the stop sign, right? Because anything else will give your fuel economy a serious hit.

Number 6,

Your driving advice is first rate, if you're driving a vehicle made before 1970. Since then there's been a few innovations to the American sedan that make much of what you say obsolete. Things like power steering, anti-lock breaks, traction control, etc.

Ironically, I both got points off my driving exam and a ticket once because I didn't have that little "bounce" at a stop.

Driving examiners are often ignorant toads.

Oh, agreed. And the cop was a quota-filler. But that's the status quo, sadly.

Shem-I wonder what it is about that technique that improves fuel economy. In general, smooth driving is better for economy (and the car, and control) but I'm not sure what the mechanism at work is.

On a similar subject, I remember a long dispute in the tech tidbits section of Road and Track over the most efficient way to accelerate from a stop. As I recall, they finally decided that the best method was to accelerate at about 2/3 throttle until you get close to your desired speed, and then slowly roll out of the gas so that you stop accelerating as you reach your target speed. I've never tested that, so YMMV. (Literally).

You're right about abs, at least in emergencies. But it's still good to know the right way to brake, and to understand where the threshold is. As for 10 and 2-you're simply wrong here. 10 and 2 came about because people needed more leverage before power steering. Everything else about that method is downside-you lose smoothness, stability, and control. Try recovering a skid with you hands staying at 10 and 2. It'll be much harder. Also, 10 and 2 tends to exaggerate small corrections. You can tell the folks who drive like that (they're usually also white knuckle drivers) because they move back and forth within their lanes in long wave ocillations.

But look, Warren-don't take my work for it. Check out Bob Bondaurant, Skip Barber, or any other performance driving instructor on the subject.

OK Number 6,
I'll concede a bit. I've been googling and can't find anyone who will say 10/2 is better than 3/9. A few sites claim as you do that 3/9 is inherently superior for control. Most others agree that there is little difference. And the new 8/4 recommendation is in case your airbag deploys.

As a former engineering student, I wish people understood what 'jerk' was, and how vector mathematics can be applied to thinking about tire traction. But I guess that's a bit much to ask of people who have trouble understanding the difference between red and green.

I met a cop once who told the story of how he made the mistake of driving with his hands at the top of the wheel and was unlucky enough to get hit and have the airbag deploy. He wound up knocking his four front teeth out and almost cracking his jaw. And he was lucky; minutes before he apparently was fiddling around with something on the dash column and had his hand in between the wheel; that would have broken his arm in a half dozen places, to say nothing of all the other damage.

as a former journalism and religious studies student, what the living hell are you talking about?

Jadagul-Well, it's hard to explain in print. But basically, in tight turns, one hand drops off the wheel for a second while the other stays in place. In really tight turns, you'll probably end up spinning the wheel with one hand, but unless you're doing Solo 2 type stuff, you won't be taking those turns fast enough for it to matter. In faster stuff, your hands stay in the same place. Your forarms may end up crossing, and that's fine.
Try youtubing some Formula One in-car stuff. Those guys are doing it right.*
Here is Micheal Shumacher, one of the greatest drivers ever, setting a lap record: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffxaFkF4wpY
Here is Jackie Stewart (admirers of great drivers should genuflect upon reading that name) at Monoco. At about 53 seconds, there is a perfect example of the cross-arm technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnc6p3YOg9Q

i never did like differentiating beyond acceleration.

slower is faster ;)

as someone who takes the subway every day, i dig it. thanks.

I'm having trouble getting the Audi to get composite mileage better than about 24 mpg. I can get hwy 31 or so, so I feel like I should be able to get better composite hwy / city than 24.

Turbo makes me giddy ...

To amplify what LIT said- In 1/10 driving, I put my hands wherever I feel like. But if something goes wrong, or I just come up on some turns, my hands automatically go back to 9 and 3.

mine go there after I've downshifted to 4th ready to take on the yellow 35mph reccomended signs.

my airbags don't work, just the way I prefer it.